Sun, 10 September 2006  First, where the heck did summer go??? Jeez o man, we cannot believe the leaves are starting to turn already! You'll probably find this show a little more 'raw' when compared to a typical show. In the interest of time, we've decided to keep some of the 'screw ups' that we would have otherwise edited out... hope it isn't terribly distracting! We hope you agree this is a great show, it's packed with your emails and our responses... this was truely a listener inspired show, thank you!!! Here's the link to Sarah's eBay store On another note, let us never forget 9/11 (a very moving clip at the end of the podcast titled 'Silent Night 9-11' Comments[223] |
Rob, just a quick correction. You mention that Mormons believe that they believe the bible as "long as it is interpreted correctly." Well, as a Mormon, that's the first I ever heard such a teaching. I believe you meant to refer to the LDS article faith that Mormons believe the Bible "as long as it is translated correctly." That I would consider a significant difference from "interpreted" to "translated."
posted by: Dallas Robbins on Mon, 9/11 11:13 AM EDT
To split hairs is fine and each is entitled to their own opinion on the significance of words; however, a quick check of the Thesaurus confirms that a valid alternate meaning for 'interpret' is infact 'translate'. Appreciate the fact that you're still out there listening and contributing!
Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source new!
Main Entry: interpret
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: define
Synonyms: adapt, annotate, clarify, comment, commentate, construe, decipher, decode, delineate, depict, describe, elucidate, enact, exemplify, explain, explicate, expound, gather, gloss, illustrate, image, improvise, limn, make of, mimic, paraphrase, perform, picture, play, portray, re-enact, read, render, represent, solve, spell out, take*, translate, understand, view
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
* = informal or slang
Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source new!
Main Entry: interpret
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: define
Synonyms: adapt, annotate, clarify, comment, commentate, construe, decipher, decode, delineate, depict, describe, elucidate, enact, exemplify, explain, explicate, expound, gather, gloss, illustrate, image, improvise, limn, make of, mimic, paraphrase, perform, picture, play, portray, re-enact, read, render, represent, solve, spell out, take*, translate, understand, view
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
* = informal or slang
Dallas, I read your post and now pose a question; you cannot have a Bible if you must have a Book of Mormon; one must offset the other; the other point is that the Mormon King James version has indeed JST inserts etc. Why not "clearly state" this beforehand?
Also in stating that you believe in the Book of Mormon why not edit the articles of faith to read; "We bellieve in the Bbible with the interpertation of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon?
This will clarify what believes in whom etc.
Also in stating that you believe in the Book of Mormon why not edit the articles of faith to read; "We bellieve in the Bbible with the interpertation of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon?
This will clarify what believes in whom etc.
Rob, I have to strongly disagree with you on your interpretation of the seriousness of the situation in which the journalists converted to Islam at gunpoint. The church was built on the blood of martyrs who faced far greater torture than a simple bullet through the head rather than deny their faith. Don’t you think there were mothers and fathers among their company who knew they were leaving small children behind? They never would have accepted the attitude you suggested of “do what you have to in order to stay alive?. The early church took such a dim view of such weakness that they withheld absolution from repentant apostates, leaving it to God's mercy after living the remainder of ones life in penance.
Jimmy Akin did his typical thorough analysis of that situation at http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/08/the_martyrs_dil.html
Jimmy Akin did his typical thorough analysis of that situation at http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/08/the_martyrs_dil.html
In my last comment I didn't address the specifics that you mentioned regarding whether all of the elements were present in order to qualify it as mortal sin. The element of consent does not mean "not under duress" as you stated. It is possible to still exercise your free will for or against while being threatened. There does remain the psychlogical question you were able to respond freely given your state of mind. Jimmy Akin addresses that in the blog I mentioned earlier.
In cases of persecution, the extreme fear or pain (as in the case of torture) that a person may be under may deprive him of adequate consent and thus we cannot be sure, in any particular case, whether a person who denied the faith committed a mortal sin. We may thus always hope for the salvation of those who denied the faith under duress.
All we can do is to pray that God will give us the grace to respond favorably if we are ever placed in such a situation.
In cases of persecution, the extreme fear or pain (as in the case of torture) that a person may be under may deprive him of adequate consent and thus we cannot be sure, in any particular case, whether a person who denied the faith committed a mortal sin. We may thus always hope for the salvation of those who denied the faith under duress.
All we can do is to pray that God will give us the grace to respond favorably if we are ever placed in such a situation.
Dallas/Rob,
My personal opinion is that the official word is "translated" but the more literal intention is "interpreted". Translated suggests that there were errors in moving from one language to the next. Since we have very early verification of Biblical documents, if there are translation problems, from the Mormon standpoint, those could be corrected in our time. The LDS Church has chosen not to do that and instead stick with the KJV, despite the fact that they have ample resources and scholarship to take on their very own translation. So it is an issue of interpretation, and Mormons need to use Bibles published by their church to they have the correct footnotes.
Historical perspective is important. At the time they used the term "translated", they probably didn't have the necessary resources to validate the Bible, and had to trust non-Mormon sources for their Bible. And there is also the apostacy argument, which includes the accusation that "plain and precious" truths were removed from the Bible. This is probably why they used the term "translated".
My personal opinion is that the official word is "translated" but the more literal intention is "interpreted". Translated suggests that there were errors in moving from one language to the next. Since we have very early verification of Biblical documents, if there are translation problems, from the Mormon standpoint, those could be corrected in our time. The LDS Church has chosen not to do that and instead stick with the KJV, despite the fact that they have ample resources and scholarship to take on their very own translation. So it is an issue of interpretation, and Mormons need to use Bibles published by their church to they have the correct footnotes.
Historical perspective is important. At the time they used the term "translated", they probably didn't have the necessary resources to validate the Bible, and had to trust non-Mormon sources for their Bible. And there is also the apostacy argument, which includes the accusation that "plain and precious" truths were removed from the Bible. This is probably why they used the term "translated".
Rob suggest that Mormons should change the article of faith to say, "We bellieve in the Bible with the interpertation of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon." Well, it's an interesting point, but it would not correctly reflect Mormon belief. And the JST "inserts" are only footnotes and are not inserted into the KJV text. Mormons use the KJV, not the JST.
"We belive the Bible as long as it is translated correctly." So who could argue against correct translation?
In fact, I use about 7 different translations of the bible in my personal study. And Mormon general authorities are well known to use different translations in public speaking when the meaning is more clear. And of course, this isn't even consider bibles in foreign languagues.
And a quick thought on interpretation. Mormons believe a lot of what JS said about the bible, but interpretation doesn't stop there. It's all about personal study and personal revelation. If you got 5 Mormons in a room to intepret a scripture, you are likely to get 7 interpretations. This I think has to do with the breadth and depth which is packed into the bible, and can be read on many levels, depending on one's spiritual journey.
I don't think I have ever read any bible with the intention of figuring out how Joseph Smith would interpet it. For me, it's all about what the original author meant. And that's good enough for me.
"We belive the Bible as long as it is translated correctly." So who could argue against correct translation?
In fact, I use about 7 different translations of the bible in my personal study. And Mormon general authorities are well known to use different translations in public speaking when the meaning is more clear. And of course, this isn't even consider bibles in foreign languagues.
And a quick thought on interpretation. Mormons believe a lot of what JS said about the bible, but interpretation doesn't stop there. It's all about personal study and personal revelation. If you got 5 Mormons in a room to intepret a scripture, you are likely to get 7 interpretations. This I think has to do with the breadth and depth which is packed into the bible, and can be read on many levels, depending on one's spiritual journey.
I don't think I have ever read any bible with the intention of figuring out how Joseph Smith would interpet it. For me, it's all about what the original author meant. And that's good enough for me.
posted by: Dallas Robbins on Thu, 9/14 04:49 PM EDT
Dallas...Dallas...Dallas... woooooo... Rob did not *suggest* anything. Yes, I did say the word 'interpret' rather than 'translate', BUT... you have jumped to the conclusion that this mis-quote was intentional... which it was not. Using interpreted or translated in the context I used it does not change the underlying intent of my statement.
So, to put this to bed before a hyper-sensitive LDS member blows things out of proportion, I do NOT propose changing the LDS articles of faith... it is 'translated' and that's just fine by me.... wow...
So, to put this to bed before a hyper-sensitive LDS member blows things out of proportion, I do NOT propose changing the LDS articles of faith... it is 'translated' and that's just fine by me.... wow...
I just want to mention that I have seen and handled a "Joseph Smith Bible".
The LDS bookstore in Palmyra had a beautiful, leather-bound Bible complete with Joseph Smith re-translation. (At least as far as got before he died.)
It's true the King James version with Joseph Smith footnotes and annotations is widely used but if anyone, Mormon or otherwise, wants to use the Joseph Smith version, they do exist. There's nothing stopping you.
Rob, different versions of the Bible may be a good topic for a podcast. It's a good way of talking about the pre- and post-Vatican II Catholic Bibles and how part of the change in Vatican II was to go as close to the original sources as possible and write a modern and clear translation. Part of Vatican II was also about making this translation available to any Christian church.
I wonder how many Christian churches, if any, took them up on that offer?
The LDS bookstore in Palmyra had a beautiful, leather-bound Bible complete with Joseph Smith re-translation. (At least as far as got before he died.)
It's true the King James version with Joseph Smith footnotes and annotations is widely used but if anyone, Mormon or otherwise, wants to use the Joseph Smith version, they do exist. There's nothing stopping you.
Rob, different versions of the Bible may be a good topic for a podcast. It's a good way of talking about the pre- and post-Vatican II Catholic Bibles and how part of the change in Vatican II was to go as close to the original sources as possible and write a modern and clear translation. Part of Vatican II was also about making this translation available to any Christian church.
I wonder how many Christian churches, if any, took them up on that offer?
Thanks Dallas... it's all good. Man, I was like "whaaaa???" You know we try to keep the peace as best as possible 'round the CMP. Thanks for the clarification.
Great idea for a topic Cernovog, if anyone is so inspired to pull some content together we'd love to present it!
Later CMP'ers... by the way, did ya notice we're closing in on 50,000 page views? Wow!
Great idea for a topic Cernovog, if anyone is so inspired to pull some content together we'd love to present it!
Later CMP'ers... by the way, did ya notice we're closing in on 50,000 page views? Wow!
Hey Gang - I hope everyone is doing well... Wow! Over 50,000 page views on the web site!!!
A funny email came into us from a listener, Edward, today that I wanted to share with you. In a previous show, Sarah and I talked about taking children to church and the challenges of keeping them quiet. Well, this email really puts things in perspective. Hope you enjoy!
Edward's message:
As I’m working on my daughter learning her prayers, I can especially appreciate these and I expect most of you can as well. Enjoy….
KIDS IN CHURCH
3-year-old Reese:
"Our Father, Who does art in heaven,
Harold is His name.
Amen."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A little boy was overheard praying:
"Lord, if you can't make me a better boy, don't worry about it.
I'm having a real good time like I am."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
After the christening of his baby brother in church,
Jason sobbed all the way home in the back seat of the car.
His father asked him three times what was wrong.
Finally, the boy replied,
"That preacher said he wanted us brought up in a Christian home,
and I wanted to stay with you guys."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I had been teaching my three-year old daughter, Caitlin,
the Lord's Prayer for several evenings at bedtime.
She would repeat after me the lines from the prayer.
Finally, she decided to go solo.
I listened with pride as she carefully enunciated each word,
right up to the end of the prayer:
"Lead us not into temptation," she prayed,
"but deliver us from E-mail.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
One particular four-year-old prayed,
"And forgive us our trash baskets
as we forgive those who put trash in our baskets."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Sunday school teacher asked her children as they
were on the way to church service,
"And why is it necessary to be quiet in church?"
One bright little girl replied,
"Because people are sleeping."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Six-year-old Angie and her four-year-old
brother, Joel, were sitting together in church.
Joel giggled, sang, and talked out loud.
Finally, his big sister had had enough.
"You're not supposed to talk out loud in church."
"Why? Who's going to stop me?" Joel asked.
Angie pointed to the back of the church and said,
"See those two men standing by the door?
They're hushers."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A mother was preparing pancakes for her sons,Kevin 5, and Ryan 3.
The boys began to argue over who would get the first pancake.
Their mother saw the opportunity for a moral lesson.
"If Jesus were sitting here, He would say,
'Let my brother have the first pancake, I can wait.'
Kevin turned to his younger brother and said,
"Ryan, you be Jesus!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A father was at the beach with his children
when the four-year-old son ran up to him,
grabbed his hand, and led him to the shore
where a seagull lay dead in the sand.
"Daddy, what happened to him?" the son asked.
"He died and went to Heaven," the Dad replied.
The boy thought a moment and then said,
"Did God throw him back down?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A wife invited some people to dinner.
At the table, she turned to their six-year-old daughter and said,
"Would you like to say the blessing?"
"I wouldn't know what to say," the girl replied.
"Just say what you hear Mommy say," the wife answered.
The daughter bowed her head and said,
"Lord, why on earth did I invite all these people to dinner?"
A funny email came into us from a listener, Edward, today that I wanted to share with you. In a previous show, Sarah and I talked about taking children to church and the challenges of keeping them quiet. Well, this email really puts things in perspective. Hope you enjoy!
Edward's message:
As I’m working on my daughter learning her prayers, I can especially appreciate these and I expect most of you can as well. Enjoy….
KIDS IN CHURCH
3-year-old Reese:
"Our Father, Who does art in heaven,
Harold is His name.
Amen."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A little boy was overheard praying:
"Lord, if you can't make me a better boy, don't worry about it.
I'm having a real good time like I am."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
After the christening of his baby brother in church,
Jason sobbed all the way home in the back seat of the car.
His father asked him three times what was wrong.
Finally, the boy replied,
"That preacher said he wanted us brought up in a Christian home,
and I wanted to stay with you guys."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I had been teaching my three-year old daughter, Caitlin,
the Lord's Prayer for several evenings at bedtime.
She would repeat after me the lines from the prayer.
Finally, she decided to go solo.
I listened with pride as she carefully enunciated each word,
right up to the end of the prayer:
"Lead us not into temptation," she prayed,
"but deliver us from E-mail.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
One particular four-year-old prayed,
"And forgive us our trash baskets
as we forgive those who put trash in our baskets."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Sunday school teacher asked her children as they
were on the way to church service,
"And why is it necessary to be quiet in church?"
One bright little girl replied,
"Because people are sleeping."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Six-year-old Angie and her four-year-old
brother, Joel, were sitting together in church.
Joel giggled, sang, and talked out loud.
Finally, his big sister had had enough.
"You're not supposed to talk out loud in church."
"Why? Who's going to stop me?" Joel asked.
Angie pointed to the back of the church and said,
"See those two men standing by the door?
They're hushers."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A mother was preparing pancakes for her sons,Kevin 5, and Ryan 3.
The boys began to argue over who would get the first pancake.
Their mother saw the opportunity for a moral lesson.
"If Jesus were sitting here, He would say,
'Let my brother have the first pancake, I can wait.'
Kevin turned to his younger brother and said,
"Ryan, you be Jesus!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A father was at the beach with his children
when the four-year-old son ran up to him,
grabbed his hand, and led him to the shore
where a seagull lay dead in the sand.
"Daddy, what happened to him?" the son asked.
"He died and went to Heaven," the Dad replied.
The boy thought a moment and then said,
"Did God throw him back down?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A wife invited some people to dinner.
At the table, she turned to their six-year-old daughter and said,
"Would you like to say the blessing?"
"I wouldn't know what to say," the girl replied.
"Just say what you hear Mommy say," the wife answered.
The daughter bowed her head and said,
"Lord, why on earth did I invite all these people to dinner?"
A little clarification -- the Septuagint was a Greek translation from the Hebrew Bible done in seventy days (where it gets its name from), and is sometimes abbreviated as the LXX for this reason. The additional books in the Catholic Bible not used by protestants are usually referred to as the Apocrypha (although there are two books of the Apocrypha not found in the Catholic Bible).
The LXX was used a lot in the early Church because Koine Greek was the common language of the Roman Empire, while nobody other than Jewish priests spoke or read Hebrew (Jews spoke Aramaic with each other, and Koine).
Protestant translators didn't remove the Apocrypha from the Bible -- they just worked from manuscripts that didn't include it. And both the Catholic and Protestant translators were selective in what they did and didn't include -- there are many apocryphal and deutercanonical works which were left out for a variety of reasons.
It's important to remember that nobody was writing "the Bible" at any time. Different writers recorded, copied, and edited a body of texts, some of which were collected to form what we now call the Bible. None of the writers of those texts indicated what should or shouldn't be included in this later collection, nor did they indicate that such a collection needed to be compiled, nor that it should be a closed compilation. Those decisions were all made by the people who did the compiling.
This is the first time I've jumped ahead in my listening, so it's the first time I'll make a comment that's apt to be read by Rob or Sara without further prompting. I do have a completed draft of my conversion story to submit, but I'll need to work it over once more before I send it along.
The LXX was used a lot in the early Church because Koine Greek was the common language of the Roman Empire, while nobody other than Jewish priests spoke or read Hebrew (Jews spoke Aramaic with each other, and Koine).
Protestant translators didn't remove the Apocrypha from the Bible -- they just worked from manuscripts that didn't include it. And both the Catholic and Protestant translators were selective in what they did and didn't include -- there are many apocryphal and deutercanonical works which were left out for a variety of reasons.
It's important to remember that nobody was writing "the Bible" at any time. Different writers recorded, copied, and edited a body of texts, some of which were collected to form what we now call the Bible. None of the writers of those texts indicated what should or shouldn't be included in this later collection, nor did they indicate that such a collection needed to be compiled, nor that it should be a closed compilation. Those decisions were all made by the people who did the compiling.
This is the first time I've jumped ahead in my listening, so it's the first time I'll make a comment that's apt to be read by Rob or Sara without further prompting. I do have a completed draft of my conversion story to submit, but I'll need to work it over once more before I send it along.
posted by: blain on Thu, 9/21 02:07 PM EDT
Dallas, I suppose I am old fashioned; In ALL the Bibles you havve Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; you also have the Psalms written by Daniel. To have any of these "Books" with aa JST insert, is not a comfotable part, since the Books were written by them; you also have a "Book of Ruth" It comes down to who actually wrote these "Books" not to have JS Text to complicate matters. Wheter a person is of one faith or another is not my concern, it does come down as tto whether or not the Bbible is in fact "the word of God"
Okay, now that I've finished the episode, I have some more to say.
I think that Kristi's Rob's experience shows an issue in the rationalist arguments against Mormonism -- when applied to any other religion, they will produce the same results. This isn't just that his faith was blown away, and he hasn't built faith in anything else, it's that the concept of faith was blown away through rationalist arguments, and the consequences of that just keep on rippling out.
Matters of faith can only be handled through this kind of rationalist critical approach up to a point, and, beyond that, none of them can survive. That point is where we choose to believe what can not be proven -- that is where faith begins.
Vincent Cronin wrote a book titled The View from Planet Earth which explores the changing view of the nature of Earth and the Universe from the time of the Greeks until recently. Throughout the Christian era, he shows time and again where a devout Christian, through scientific exploration, comes to understand that his initial, religion-based understanding of the universe was demonstrably false, and there were basically two responses to that moment. One was that the believer would reject his belief and become an atheist/agnostic. The other was that the believer would say (essentially) "Wow! God is even cooler than I thought to make a universe so much more complicated than I thought it was!"
Religious explorers have essentially the same experience. As we look more closely into the history of our faith-communities, we find that the stories we have been told are at least as much wishful legend as they are accurate accounts of past events -- this is at least as true for Catholics as it is for Mormons, as y'all have had a lot longer to build up those legends than we have. At that moment, we have the choice of rejecting our faith, cursing God and dying, or saying "Wow! God's even cooler than I thought, to take such flawed human beings and making such a great Church out of them." How we make that choice will impact our lives pretty fundamentally, even though it is a revocable choice, but that choice really is more of a reflection on us than it is of what we are accepting or rejecting. No matter what, there will always be more to God, more to the Universe, more to a Church than any of us can be exposed to or comprehend.
Isn't it nice that we don't have to make those choices perfectly?
I think that Kristi's Rob's experience shows an issue in the rationalist arguments against Mormonism -- when applied to any other religion, they will produce the same results. This isn't just that his faith was blown away, and he hasn't built faith in anything else, it's that the concept of faith was blown away through rationalist arguments, and the consequences of that just keep on rippling out.
Matters of faith can only be handled through this kind of rationalist critical approach up to a point, and, beyond that, none of them can survive. That point is where we choose to believe what can not be proven -- that is where faith begins.
Vincent Cronin wrote a book titled The View from Planet Earth which explores the changing view of the nature of Earth and the Universe from the time of the Greeks until recently. Throughout the Christian era, he shows time and again where a devout Christian, through scientific exploration, comes to understand that his initial, religion-based understanding of the universe was demonstrably false, and there were basically two responses to that moment. One was that the believer would reject his belief and become an atheist/agnostic. The other was that the believer would say (essentially) "Wow! God is even cooler than I thought to make a universe so much more complicated than I thought it was!"
Religious explorers have essentially the same experience. As we look more closely into the history of our faith-communities, we find that the stories we have been told are at least as much wishful legend as they are accurate accounts of past events -- this is at least as true for Catholics as it is for Mormons, as y'all have had a lot longer to build up those legends than we have. At that moment, we have the choice of rejecting our faith, cursing God and dying, or saying "Wow! God's even cooler than I thought, to take such flawed human beings and making such a great Church out of them." How we make that choice will impact our lives pretty fundamentally, even though it is a revocable choice, but that choice really is more of a reflection on us than it is of what we are accepting or rejecting. No matter what, there will always be more to God, more to the Universe, more to a Church than any of us can be exposed to or comprehend.
Isn't it nice that we don't have to make those choices perfectly?
Well put for the poster above me. You and I share the same opinion that at some point faith must enter the equation or we find ourselves in endless searches and frankly with deadends because many of the matters for which we seek answers for cannot (in in my opinion) be answered in this lifetime by pure science or logic as we know it today and that's 'ok' with me. (I think Sarah would share this opinion too...) Nice run-on sentence, ah?
Thanks also for fixing the open italics in the html from a previous post!
Thanks also for fixing the open italics in the html from a previous post!
Whoops. Forgot to sign my post (the one above Rob's).
Yeah, I had a couple of those sentences running-on as well. As long as we're not comma splicing, I'm not going to worry about it.
And you're welcome. Closing paired tags is a Good Thing™
Yeah, I had a couple of those sentences running-on as well. As long as we're not comma splicing, I'm not going to worry about it.
And you're welcome. Closing paired tags is a Good Thing™
posted by: Blain on Sat, 9/23 02:08 AM EDT
I have just heard that Jared Tanner of Utah Lighthouse Ministries has passed away after a long illness.
Let's keep Sandra and Jared in our prayers and ask God to bring comfort to Sandra in her time of grief and to speed Jared's journey to eternal rest.
http://www.utlm.org/jeraldtanner.html
Let's keep Sandra and Jared in our prayers and ask God to bring comfort to Sandra in her time of grief and to speed Jared's journey to eternal rest.
http://www.utlm.org/jeraldtanner.html
I have exciting news. The first is that it is snowing here in Ohio! And the second is that my wife Shanon and I are expecting our first child. If you would like to see some of the ultrasound pics and have a myspace account you can go to my blog page (click my name below). God Bless.
posted by: Josh from Ohio on Thu, 10/12 02:42 PM EDT
Rob was wondering why the Church uses footnotes for the JST instead of just doing away with the footnotes and placing the JST directly into the Biblical text.
From what I understand, the reason is as follows:
After Joseph Smith died, Emma kept possession of the JST and therefore when the RLDS church was formed, they received the copy right. The LDS church tried unsuccessfully to purchas the copy right from the RLDS Church. The LDS church did received permission to use portions of the JST text. Since the KJV of the Bible is copy righted it can't be changed. Therefore the LDS decided to use footnotes for the portions of the JST they have permission to use. There is an extended portion of the JST Matthew that is too long for the use of footnotes and has been included in The Pearl of Great Price.
From what I understand, the reason is as follows:
After Joseph Smith died, Emma kept possession of the JST and therefore when the RLDS church was formed, they received the copy right. The LDS church tried unsuccessfully to purchas the copy right from the RLDS Church. The LDS church did received permission to use portions of the JST text. Since the KJV of the Bible is copy righted it can't be changed. Therefore the LDS decided to use footnotes for the portions of the JST they have permission to use. There is an extended portion of the JST Matthew that is too long for the use of footnotes and has been included in The Pearl of Great Price.
Robert,
What on earth are you talking about? Wasn't the King James Version of the Bible written in something like 1611? Nothing that old maintains a copyright.
The copyright on *anything* Joseph Smith could have written in his lifetime has long since expired too.
I don't know what the copyright laws were like in 1830, but as of 1904, a copyright only lasted for 28 years and then you had to renew it. Copyrights from 1918 reached their last renewable term in 1993. The Book of Mormon is certainly in the public domain as would be anything, absolutely anything from Joseph Smith's lifetime.
Your explanation of footnotes may have been correct at some point in time and when the copyright lapsed into public domain, the LDS church simply never changed this practice.
What on earth are you talking about? Wasn't the King James Version of the Bible written in something like 1611? Nothing that old maintains a copyright.
The copyright on *anything* Joseph Smith could have written in his lifetime has long since expired too.
I don't know what the copyright laws were like in 1830, but as of 1904, a copyright only lasted for 28 years and then you had to renew it. Copyrights from 1918 reached their last renewable term in 1993. The Book of Mormon is certainly in the public domain as would be anything, absolutely anything from Joseph Smith's lifetime.
Your explanation of footnotes may have been correct at some point in time and when the copyright lapsed into public domain, the LDS church simply never changed this practice.
I'm definitely no expert on copyright law. It takes resources to republish standard materials. The format of the English scriptures currently in use by the Church today was published in the late 1970s.
Since I'm not an expert on copyright law, and I’m not going to take the time to write a legal brief, I can only comment on what I have heard in the past. There is some anecdotal evidence I will mention that conceptually supports what I wrote above. Again, I’m not writing a legal brief so I will not take the time to support all I hear.
One thing I heard is that there are four organizations that own the copyright to the KJV of the Bible. One of these organizations is the LDS Church. How that is reconcilable with what Cernovog is saying I do not know.
I personally had a conversation with some of the General Authorities. I noticed that one of the General Authorities had a Spanish "Quad". A "Quad" is a single book that contains the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. I asked where I could get a Spanish Quad since I have always wanted one but had never seen one. They told me that this Quad could not be purchased but that someone had purchased a Spanish Bible (Reina-Valera version) and a Triple (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) and had bound the two together by hand. They went on to say that the Church dose not sell a Spanish Quad because the Church does not own the copyright to a Spanish version of the Bible like in English, but the Church was working on purchasing one.
More anecdotal evidence of the church not owning copyrights to certain scriptures (again this is in Spanish) is the fact that the Church has the scriptures online in Spanish, but the Bible is not online is Spanish.
These are just a few anecdotal evidences of the concept that the Church does not own copyright to certain scriptures or literary works. Again, how this reconciles with what Cernovog stated I do not know.
Since I'm not an expert on copyright law, and I’m not going to take the time to write a legal brief, I can only comment on what I have heard in the past. There is some anecdotal evidence I will mention that conceptually supports what I wrote above. Again, I’m not writing a legal brief so I will not take the time to support all I hear.
One thing I heard is that there are four organizations that own the copyright to the KJV of the Bible. One of these organizations is the LDS Church. How that is reconcilable with what Cernovog is saying I do not know.
I personally had a conversation with some of the General Authorities. I noticed that one of the General Authorities had a Spanish "Quad". A "Quad" is a single book that contains the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. I asked where I could get a Spanish Quad since I have always wanted one but had never seen one. They told me that this Quad could not be purchased but that someone had purchased a Spanish Bible (Reina-Valera version) and a Triple (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) and had bound the two together by hand. They went on to say that the Church dose not sell a Spanish Quad because the Church does not own the copyright to a Spanish version of the Bible like in English, but the Church was working on purchasing one.
More anecdotal evidence of the church not owning copyrights to certain scriptures (again this is in Spanish) is the fact that the Church has the scriptures online in Spanish, but the Bible is not online is Spanish.
These are just a few anecdotal evidences of the concept that the Church does not own copyright to certain scriptures or literary works. Again, how this reconciles with what Cernovog stated I do not know.
A few comments on the Septuagint. What follows is largely from memory, supported from a few articles I found online (I don't have any of my books with me right now). The article at Wikipedia looks pretty good, though, if you want to read up on it.
The "seventy" in Septuagint comes from there being both 72 scholars who worked on it and them taking 72 days to translate it. I believe part of the legend about it is also that they worked independantly of one another, yet when they were done their translations of the Pentateuch were word-for-word the same. It was done well after the Hebrew canon was generally considered closed.
The word Septuagint refers to the whole ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament, not simply the Old Testament books that are absent from protestant Bibles (I may have misunderstood you, Rob, but that seemed to be what you were thinking). Protestants call those books The Apocrypha, which means works that are not a part of scriptural canon. Some protestant bibles do actually contain these books, but they are separated from the rest of the Old Testament.
Now the history. This difference between Roman Catholic and protestant bibles goes back to the reformation. One of the issues in question was the tendancy the Roman church had to put the works of the great Christian thinkers throughout the centuries (Thomas Aquinas for example) on the same level as scripture. The reasoning was that God didn't stop inspiring people just because the canon was closed. That's a good reason. However, the reformers felt that when we came to a point where Aquinas or Anselm or the Pope disagreed with scripture, then scripture should take priority. This is what the reformers called Sola Scriptura. Scripture should be the final authority in faith and life. It's not that those other works were not important (Luther was an Augustinian monk, after all), but that scripture should take priority.
The reformers also felt that the average person should have access to this scripture. The Church at the time did not. Bibles were written in Latin and the church wanted to keep it that way. So Luther set out to translate the Bible into German. Now, going back the the Septuagint. If you were to translate an ancient scripture, you'd want to use documents as close to the original as possible, right? The Septuagint is a translation of the original. So Luther went back to the Hebrew scriptures, rather than the Septuagint. So, it wasn't a matter of protestants removing inspired works from the Bible (a somewhat passive-agressive remark on your part, Rob). It was a matter of Luther seeking to get the the most authoritative source he could find.
You are right that New Testament writers quoted the Septuagint from time to time, but I'm pretty certain they never quoted the apocryphal books. Their quotes were from books that are in both canons. Feel free to correct me on that if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.
I don't mean to dump on the Roman Catholic church. It has long since dropped the pattern of withholding the scriptures from people. I think we can all agree that getting Bibles into your hands and mine is a good thing.
The "seventy" in Septuagint comes from there being both 72 scholars who worked on it and them taking 72 days to translate it. I believe part of the legend about it is also that they worked independantly of one another, yet when they were done their translations of the Pentateuch were word-for-word the same. It was done well after the Hebrew canon was generally considered closed.
The word Septuagint refers to the whole ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament, not simply the Old Testament books that are absent from protestant Bibles (I may have misunderstood you, Rob, but that seemed to be what you were thinking). Protestants call those books The Apocrypha, which means works that are not a part of scriptural canon. Some protestant bibles do actually contain these books, but they are separated from the rest of the Old Testament.
Now the history. This difference between Roman Catholic and protestant bibles goes back to the reformation. One of the issues in question was the tendancy the Roman church had to put the works of the great Christian thinkers throughout the centuries (Thomas Aquinas for example) on the same level as scripture. The reasoning was that God didn't stop inspiring people just because the canon was closed. That's a good reason. However, the reformers felt that when we came to a point where Aquinas or Anselm or the Pope disagreed with scripture, then scripture should take priority. This is what the reformers called Sola Scriptura. Scripture should be the final authority in faith and life. It's not that those other works were not important (Luther was an Augustinian monk, after all), but that scripture should take priority.
The reformers also felt that the average person should have access to this scripture. The Church at the time did not. Bibles were written in Latin and the church wanted to keep it that way. So Luther set out to translate the Bible into German. Now, going back the the Septuagint. If you were to translate an ancient scripture, you'd want to use documents as close to the original as possible, right? The Septuagint is a translation of the original. So Luther went back to the Hebrew scriptures, rather than the Septuagint. So, it wasn't a matter of protestants removing inspired works from the Bible (a somewhat passive-agressive remark on your part, Rob). It was a matter of Luther seeking to get the the most authoritative source he could find.
You are right that New Testament writers quoted the Septuagint from time to time, but I'm pretty certain they never quoted the apocryphal books. Their quotes were from books that are in both canons. Feel free to correct me on that if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.
I don't mean to dump on the Roman Catholic church. It has long since dropped the pattern of withholding the scriptures from people. I think we can all agree that getting Bibles into your hands and mine is a good thing.
I came across this cartoon that very clearly describes some of the more esoteric Mormon teachings... the "meat" if you will.
There is a bit of a debate on a couple of the finer points. I was wondering how much of it is 100% accurate?
I'd like to get Rob and Sarah's reaction. Also, I'd like to know where this came from. Has anyone else seen this before?
http://throwawayyourtv.com/2006/07/mormon-theology.html
There is a bit of a debate on a couple of the finer points. I was wondering how much of it is 100% accurate?
I'd like to get Rob and Sarah's reaction. Also, I'd like to know where this came from. Has anyone else seen this before?
http://throwawayyourtv.com/2006/07/mormon-theology.html
I strongly disagree with you Eric.
"The reformers also felt that the average person should have access to this scripture. The Church at the time did not." The Church really did wany people to have access to the Bible. To quote St. Jerome "Ignorance of scripture is Ignorance of Christ".
In response to Sola Scripture, I have the following argument:
Scripture nowhere claims to be the only source to which Christians must listen. In 1 Cor. 11:2 Pauls commends readers for keeping the traditions just as he delivered them "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you."
In 2 Thess 2:15, Paul commands his readers to keep all of the traditions, regardless of weather they are recorded in Scripture "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."
How are we to know which are genuine apostolic traditions versus mere traditiions of men? The Church is a sure guide. In 1 Tim. 3:15, Paul tells us that the Church is the "Pillar and bulkwark of the truth"
In 2 Tim. 2:2, Paul tells Timothy to take what he has learned form Paul (apostolic tradition) and pass it on to faithful men who will be able to teach other also. Since this is Paul's last epistle cf. 4:6-8), Paul is ensuring that apostolic Tradition will be passed on even in the post apostolic age.
2 Pet. 1:20 gives us the first rule of Bile interpretation: "First of all you must understand this, that no prophesy of scripture is a mater of one's own interpretation." It is not for us simply to decide what scripture means.
2 Pet. 3:16 admits "the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction." Interpreting Scripture privately, apart from the mind of the Church, is not safe.
The most authoritative source Luther could have found was the magisterium of the Church. The church that defined the cannon, that proclaimed the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, the church of the creeds and councils.
Do not forget that it was the Church, specifically Benedictine Monks, that copied out the Bible for almost 1000 years... it is the church that proclaimed the gospel is the Holy Mass, and did not leave people on their own to fall into error.
I speculate that some of the motivation for the absence the Old Testament Books Tobias, Judith, wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and 1 and 2 Maccabees were also what the truths about God they revealed. For example in 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 we are told that it is a good and holy thing to pray for the dead. There are paople who die in God's friendship but who are imperfectly purified from their attachment to sin. They can use our prayers to assist them, for "nothing unclean shall enter it (heavan)" (Rev 21:27)
Also your statement "The reasoning was that God didn't stop inspiring people just because the canon was closed." is either false, or needs to be qualified. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that
"There will be no further Revelation:
The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.
Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept "revelations" that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such "revelations."
"I think we can all agree that getting Bibles into your hands and mine is a good thing." this is true, but we must never leave man without the mind of the Church to consult.
"One of the issues in question was the tendancy the Roman church had to put the works of the great Christian thinkers throughout the centuries (Thomas Aquinas for example) on the same level as scripture." well.. sort of, but not really. The Summa Theologica is right up there in the teaching of the Church Fathers. yet... Saint Thomas Aquinas disagreed with the notion that Mary was conceived without sin, and Saint catherine of Sienna insisted that the Blessed Mother personally appeared to her and told her otherwise. But the fact is, Holy Mother Church spoke at the first Vatican Council and infallibly defined the doctrine of the immaculate conception, just as she infallibly defined the Apostles Creed.
"The reformers also felt that the average person should have access to this scripture. The Church at the time did not." The Church really did wany people to have access to the Bible. To quote St. Jerome "Ignorance of scripture is Ignorance of Christ".
In response to Sola Scripture, I have the following argument:
Scripture nowhere claims to be the only source to which Christians must listen. In 1 Cor. 11:2 Pauls commends readers for keeping the traditions just as he delivered them "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you."
In 2 Thess 2:15, Paul commands his readers to keep all of the traditions, regardless of weather they are recorded in Scripture "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."
How are we to know which are genuine apostolic traditions versus mere traditiions of men? The Church is a sure guide. In 1 Tim. 3:15, Paul tells us that the Church is the "Pillar and bulkwark of the truth"
In 2 Tim. 2:2, Paul tells Timothy to take what he has learned form Paul (apostolic tradition) and pass it on to faithful men who will be able to teach other also. Since this is Paul's last epistle cf. 4:6-8), Paul is ensuring that apostolic Tradition will be passed on even in the post apostolic age.
2 Pet. 1:20 gives us the first rule of Bile interpretation: "First of all you must understand this, that no prophesy of scripture is a mater of one's own interpretation." It is not for us simply to decide what scripture means.
2 Pet. 3:16 admits "the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction." Interpreting Scripture privately, apart from the mind of the Church, is not safe.
The most authoritative source Luther could have found was the magisterium of the Church. The church that defined the cannon, that proclaimed the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, the church of the creeds and councils.
Do not forget that it was the Church, specifically Benedictine Monks, that copied out the Bible for almost 1000 years... it is the church that proclaimed the gospel is the Holy Mass, and did not leave people on their own to fall into error.
I speculate that some of the motivation for the absence the Old Testament Books Tobias, Judith, wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and 1 and 2 Maccabees were also what the truths about God they revealed. For example in 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 we are told that it is a good and holy thing to pray for the dead. There are paople who die in God's friendship but who are imperfectly purified from their attachment to sin. They can use our prayers to assist them, for "nothing unclean shall enter it (heavan)" (Rev 21:27)
Also your statement "The reasoning was that God didn't stop inspiring people just because the canon was closed." is either false, or needs to be qualified. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that
"There will be no further Revelation:
The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.
Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept "revelations" that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such "revelations."
"I think we can all agree that getting Bibles into your hands and mine is a good thing." this is true, but we must never leave man without the mind of the Church to consult.
"One of the issues in question was the tendancy the Roman church had to put the works of the great Christian thinkers throughout the centuries (Thomas Aquinas for example) on the same level as scripture." well.. sort of, but not really. The Summa Theologica is right up there in the teaching of the Church Fathers. yet... Saint Thomas Aquinas disagreed with the notion that Mary was conceived without sin, and Saint catherine of Sienna insisted that the Blessed Mother personally appeared to her and told her otherwise. But the fact is, Holy Mother Church spoke at the first Vatican Council and infallibly defined the doctrine of the immaculate conception, just as she infallibly defined the Apostles Creed.
Geoff is back :) Hey thanks for the postcard. I love getting mail! I'm always baffled when I get something from Canada. "Who do I know from Canada" and then I see your name. Hope you enjoyed the rest of your bike trip. I enjoyed reading about it. Do you have a myspace account?
Take Care,
Take Care,
posted by: Josh from Ohio on Tue, 10/24 03:53 PM EDT
Hey,I read about the scandal concerning the pedophile Mark Foley. I wondered "what religion might he belong to" and looked it up, and tadaaa, he is a catholic.
Why is it mostly the catholic church which is involved in pedophilia scandals???
Is there an inherent connection?
Does the catholic church promote pedophilia?
Maybe it does not on the surface, but maybe there is an inherent promotion.
For example, because of the discrimination against homosexuals, men who feel attracted to the same sex feel great pressure, they think it's a sin and suppress their emotions.
Of course, they are not made for a normal marriage, and so they look for a way out to avoid marrying a woman. And, tadaaa, they become priests.
By suppressing their emotions, their natural urges search for new objects, and as any heterosexual man in their parish would react (violently?) if molested by a priest, their mind switches to those who are weakest within the parish, namely young children.
So, is Catholicism promoting pedophilia by holding up an irrational aversion against homosexuality?
Greets,
Wonderer
Why is it mostly the catholic church which is involved in pedophilia scandals???
Is there an inherent connection?
Does the catholic church promote pedophilia?
Maybe it does not on the surface, but maybe there is an inherent promotion.
For example, because of the discrimination against homosexuals, men who feel attracted to the same sex feel great pressure, they think it's a sin and suppress their emotions.
Of course, they are not made for a normal marriage, and so they look for a way out to avoid marrying a woman. And, tadaaa, they become priests.
By suppressing their emotions, their natural urges search for new objects, and as any heterosexual man in their parish would react (violently?) if molested by a priest, their mind switches to those who are weakest within the parish, namely young children.
So, is Catholicism promoting pedophilia by holding up an irrational aversion against homosexuality?
Greets,
Wonderer
They call him the "wonderer" :)
I don't think you actually needed to "look up what religion might he belonged to". The media did a great job of that. It makes me so mad when another priest from the 70's did these horrific acts. These men should be held accountable for their actions. My point is that I don't think Mr. Wonderer actually took the time to look it up and by his tone he just wanted to attack the priesthood in general for these men's horrible actions. I was debating weather I wanted to even respond to this wonderer, but someone needs to speak up for all the good priest, who love and serve God full heartedly and unselfishly. Praise God for all the good priests and all the work that they do.
I don't think you actually needed to "look up what religion might he belonged to". The media did a great job of that. It makes me so mad when another priest from the 70's did these horrific acts. These men should be held accountable for their actions. My point is that I don't think Mr. Wonderer actually took the time to look it up and by his tone he just wanted to attack the priesthood in general for these men's horrible actions. I was debating weather I wanted to even respond to this wonderer, but someone needs to speak up for all the good priest, who love and serve God full heartedly and unselfishly. Praise God for all the good priests and all the work that they do.
Hi Josh,
my post was not a blanket condemnation of all catholic priests. Although there are many cases of sexual abuse by catholic priests, they surely are a minority.
What I wanted to point out is questioning why there are so many of them, and if there are structural problems. How are priests helped when they have problems with their sexuality? Only during confession?
Priest: "I have sexual urges!"
Pater: "Pray the rosary!"
About your last statement:
If you praise God for all the good priests,
what do you do to God about all the bad priests?
Complain?
Protest?
No. "It's not his fault."
Maybe it is.
Just wondering...
my post was not a blanket condemnation of all catholic priests. Although there are many cases of sexual abuse by catholic priests, they surely are a minority.
What I wanted to point out is questioning why there are so many of them, and if there are structural problems. How are priests helped when they have problems with their sexuality? Only during confession?
Priest: "I have sexual urges!"
Pater: "Pray the rosary!"
About your last statement:
If you praise God for all the good priests,
what do you do to God about all the bad priests?
Complain?
Protest?
No. "It's not his fault."
Maybe it is.
Just wondering...
To Wanderer,
Your contemplation of the Church sex scandal is honorable and it is something that all concerned Catholics need to do.
I might offer some ideas as we move forward with our faith in the Church.
I can emphatically state that the Catholic Church does not promote this type of behavior. It is summarily, a microcosm of society as a whole and has not, nor ever claimed, to be and institution devoid of the problems of humanity, on the contrary.
I would certainly concur with the perception that some of these problems were grossly mishandled by the magestarium, but then again, what human institution has never had to deal with the tough issues of sinners amongst them?
More importantly, the Catholic Church is a divine institution given to humans by Christ. These same humans are sinful. We admit it. But what better place for sinners to be is in the Catholic Church? If I am sick, do I not seek medical advise? If I am sinful, do I not seek the grace of God? It is easy to demean and turn away from the sinners among us, but Jesus himself asks, "let the one amongst you who is without sin, cast the first stone."
What a lesson in humility to be sure. How then should we respond? Like Christ, with love. There really is no acceptable alternative to love. The victims in these instances require the healing of Christ and the love and support of his community. We do need to make reparations, for sure, but beyond that, we need to express to the victims that all in the Church are not out to harm them and that the sinful of humanity exist everywhere, including the Church. Jesus requires that we seek forgiveness for our transgressions and move on with a cleaner heart and open eyes for the next pitfall.
This past Sunday was Priesthood Sunday. A time in which we celebrate the vocation of Priests in our Church. While it is easy to admire those men whom answer the call of vocations, it is important to realize, that beneath the vocation, is a man. Like us all, prone to sin and seeking God.
While most are familiar with the stories of fallen priests in the media, there are countless stories over the years of goodness and divine inspiration that arise from the actions of those priests among us who live out the love of Christ, without fanfare, on a daily basis. The Catholic priesthood, over the centuries, has done more to advance the cause for humanity, reason and faith, than any other single institution that exists in history. It certainly would be a grave error to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I urge you to continue your zeal for understanding this matter. It certainly is an excercise in humility but it is also an opportunity to express our love for one another. The end result should not be a condemnation of these sinners, but an opportunity to heal and forgive, as any among us, would want.
I urge you to learn of the official Church response and actions regarding this topic found at the United States Conference for Catholic Bishops found at www.usccb.org.
Keep the faith.
Your contemplation of the Church sex scandal is honorable and it is something that all concerned Catholics need to do.
I might offer some ideas as we move forward with our faith in the Church.
I can emphatically state that the Catholic Church does not promote this type of behavior. It is summarily, a microcosm of society as a whole and has not, nor ever claimed, to be and institution devoid of the problems of humanity, on the contrary.
I would certainly concur with the perception that some of these problems were grossly mishandled by the magestarium, but then again, what human institution has never had to deal with the tough issues of sinners amongst them?
More importantly, the Catholic Church is a divine institution given to humans by Christ. These same humans are sinful. We admit it. But what better place for sinners to be is in the Catholic Church? If I am sick, do I not seek medical advise? If I am sinful, do I not seek the grace of God? It is easy to demean and turn away from the sinners among us, but Jesus himself asks, "let the one amongst you who is without sin, cast the first stone."
What a lesson in humility to be sure. How then should we respond? Like Christ, with love. There really is no acceptable alternative to love. The victims in these instances require the healing of Christ and the love and support of his community. We do need to make reparations, for sure, but beyond that, we need to express to the victims that all in the Church are not out to harm them and that the sinful of humanity exist everywhere, including the Church. Jesus requires that we seek forgiveness for our transgressions and move on with a cleaner heart and open eyes for the next pitfall.
This past Sunday was Priesthood Sunday. A time in which we celebrate the vocation of Priests in our Church. While it is easy to admire those men whom answer the call of vocations, it is important to realize, that beneath the vocation, is a man. Like us all, prone to sin and seeking God.
While most are familiar with the stories of fallen priests in the media, there are countless stories over the years of goodness and divine inspiration that arise from the actions of those priests among us who live out the love of Christ, without fanfare, on a daily basis. The Catholic priesthood, over the centuries, has done more to advance the cause for humanity, reason and faith, than any other single institution that exists in history. It certainly would be a grave error to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I urge you to continue your zeal for understanding this matter. It certainly is an excercise in humility but it is also an opportunity to express our love for one another. The end result should not be a condemnation of these sinners, but an opportunity to heal and forgive, as any among us, would want.
I urge you to learn of the official Church response and actions regarding this topic found at the United States Conference for Catholic Bishops found at www.usccb.org.
Keep the faith.
Ah...the old idea that abstinance makes the church grow fondlers.
I dont quite know about that. I was emailed an article by a Jesuit priest the other day that brought up this basic thesis:
After world war 2 was the golden age for being a priest. It was a position of great respect and many of the best and brightest of the church in that generation felt the call.
Because of this view of the Priesthood as being a position of great respect, in the generation following, some men joined because it was a esteemed position, not because they felt a real calling to it.
And a few joined because they felt they had some of these "tendencies." They had seen the priests of the earlier generation, and saw their holiness, and thought that devoting themselves to a higher calling could stifle these urges. But unfortunatly that did not help because it is a disease. Becoming a priest just put them into a position where they were faced with an oportunity to act on their urges.
I dont quite know about that. I was emailed an article by a Jesuit priest the other day that brought up this basic thesis:
After world war 2 was the golden age for being a priest. It was a position of great respect and many of the best and brightest of the church in that generation felt the call.
Because of this view of the Priesthood as being a position of great respect, in the generation following, some men joined because it was a esteemed position, not because they felt a real calling to it.
And a few joined because they felt they had some of these "tendencies." They had seen the priests of the earlier generation, and saw their holiness, and thought that devoting themselves to a higher calling could stifle these urges. But unfortunatly that did not help because it is a disease. Becoming a priest just put them into a position where they were faced with an oportunity to act on their urges.
Thanks Mark. That was very well put.
I do have to ask though... Forgive is one thing, but do you think we should let these offenders continue to be priests? What about teachers in schools who commit these same acts. Should they keep their jobs or would firing them be condemning in your eyes? Now I'm just wondering ;)
Wonderer,
About your last statement where you asked:
"If you praise God for all the good priests,
what do you do to God about all the bad priests?
Complain?
Protest?
No. It's not his fault.
Maybe it is."
We SHOULD give praise to God for working in people's lives. Why does your question imply that if I give praise to God for the good that He does in people through the Holy Spirit, that I must blame God for the poor choices of an individual. God does not make us sin! We do that on our own, but with God's help we can overcome the temptation of sin. So yes in that sense I praise God all the time for helping me overcome temptation, because He does.
I do have to ask though... Forgive is one thing, but do you think we should let these offenders continue to be priests? What about teachers in schools who commit these same acts. Should they keep their jobs or would firing them be condemning in your eyes? Now I'm just wondering ;)
Wonderer,
About your last statement where you asked:
"If you praise God for all the good priests,
what do you do to God about all the bad priests?
Complain?
Protest?
No. It's not his fault.
Maybe it is."
We SHOULD give praise to God for working in people's lives. Why does your question imply that if I give praise to God for the good that He does in people through the Holy Spirit, that I must blame God for the poor choices of an individual. God does not make us sin! We do that on our own, but with God's help we can overcome the temptation of sin. So yes in that sense I praise God all the time for helping me overcome temptation, because He does.
Hi Josh,
As I understand it, once a priest, always a priest. If a priest renounces the teachings or is in direct conflict with the Church, he risks excommunication and is defrocked.
If a priest is in the state of serious sin, he may be required by the magestarium to cease public life and be removed from his assignment and away from the occasion of sin. Certainly the sin can be forgiven, but the prudent action would be for future assignments, if future assignments are warranted, to take into account the measured benefit of those being served.
This is not to say that a pedophile, sex offender or other crime (whether committed by a priest, teacher or the average Joe) be immune from justice. We are required to live in a just society and any retribution from the courts should be fair, quick and just for all involved.
Terminating a teacher for these same crimes, if justified and verified, is not a condemnation in my mind, but a necessary action for the protection of the youth.
In both actions, whether a priest or teacher, removal from the job is paramount in the protection of the child. What society and/or the Church decides what to do with the individuals beyond this, needs to be done with the utmost care and respect for the persons dignity as a human, all within our established laws AND the teachings of Christ. Hate the sin, not the sinner.
As I understand it, once a priest, always a priest. If a priest renounces the teachings or is in direct conflict with the Church, he risks excommunication and is defrocked.
If a priest is in the state of serious sin, he may be required by the magestarium to cease public life and be removed from his assignment and away from the occasion of sin. Certainly the sin can be forgiven, but the prudent action would be for future assignments, if future assignments are warranted, to take into account the measured benefit of those being served.
This is not to say that a pedophile, sex offender or other crime (whether committed by a priest, teacher or the average Joe) be immune from justice. We are required to live in a just society and any retribution from the courts should be fair, quick and just for all involved.
Terminating a teacher for these same crimes, if justified and verified, is not a condemnation in my mind, but a necessary action for the protection of the youth.
In both actions, whether a priest or teacher, removal from the job is paramount in the protection of the child. What society and/or the Church decides what to do with the individuals beyond this, needs to be done with the utmost care and respect for the persons dignity as a human, all within our established laws AND the teachings of Christ. Hate the sin, not the sinner.
"This is not to say that a pedophile, sex offender or other crime (whether committed by a priest, teacher or the average Joe) be immune from justice. We are required to live in a just society and any retribution from the courts should be fair, quick and just for all involved."
-----------------------------------------------
Mark,
Thank you for clarifying. I agree totally :)
-----------------------------------------------
Mark,
Thank you for clarifying. I agree totally :)
Talking about Priests,
recently I stumbled upon this calender of catholic priests:
http://www.calendarioromano.co.uk/
Funny thing is: I read about it in a gay magazine.
"This calender with its fresh idea, showing priests who, by their seeming innocence, provoke a subtle form of eroticism, is a great idea."
I had quite a laugh, but it's a great present for your catholic gay neighbor or local altar boy.
Greets,
The ultimate altar boy.
recently I stumbled upon this calender of catholic priests:
http://www.calendarioromano.co.uk/
Funny thing is: I read about it in a gay magazine.
"This calender with its fresh idea, showing priests who, by their seeming innocence, provoke a subtle form of eroticism, is a great idea."
I had quite a laugh, but it's a great present for your catholic gay neighbor or local altar boy.
Greets,
The ultimate altar boy.
posted by: Priests on Tue, 11/7 04:34 PM EST
No comment...
posted by: Josh from Ohio on Wed, 11/8 01:31 PM EST
WHENS THE NEXT CONVERSION CAST, WERE DYING OUT HERE HURRY.... HEEEEEELP
posted by: Mark on Wed, 11/8 05:11 PM EST
The past comment from Mark (not to be confused with this writer) does encourage us to bring the conversation out of the gutter.
With that, I present the following Catholic Church teaching and welcome some commentary as it relates to other faiths.
'It is in accordance with their dignity as persons-that is, beings endowed with reason and free will and therefore privileged to bear personal responsibility-that all men should be at once impelled by nature and also bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth, once it is known, and to order their whole lives in accord with the demands of truth However, men cannot discharge these obligations in a manner in keeping with their own nature unless they enjoy immunity from external coercion as well as psychological freedom. Therefore the right to religious freedom has its foundation not in the subjective disposition of the person, but in his very nature. In consequence, the right to this immunity continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it and the exercise of this right is not to be impeded, provided that just public order be observed."
Heavy reading indeed. Please contemplate and comment.
With that, I present the following Catholic Church teaching and welcome some commentary as it relates to other faiths.
'It is in accordance with their dignity as persons-that is, beings endowed with reason and free will and therefore privileged to bear personal responsibility-that all men should be at once impelled by nature and also bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth, once it is known, and to order their whole lives in accord with the demands of truth However, men cannot discharge these obligations in a manner in keeping with their own nature unless they enjoy immunity from external coercion as well as psychological freedom. Therefore the right to religious freedom has its foundation not in the subjective disposition of the person, but in his very nature. In consequence, the right to this immunity continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it and the exercise of this right is not to be impeded, provided that just public order be observed."
Heavy reading indeed. Please contemplate and comment.
Dear Priests... I invite you to read what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say on Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Hi everyone! Hope all is well. Very busy at the moment, but have a request from a few of the Traditionalist Pro Latin Mass Catholics (Rebecca? I forget the names, my apologies)
Could you please email me at jeremydane71@yahoo.com
Have some questions. Many thanks.
Happy Thanksgiving Rob and Sarah and all the CMP'ers!!!
Could you please email me at jeremydane71@yahoo.com
Have some questions. Many thanks.
Happy Thanksgiving Rob and Sarah and all the CMP'ers!!!
Am I reading this wrong or is "Priests" aka "Ultimate Altar Boy" in a previous posting, advocating giving inappropriate literature to children?
Is anyone screening this stuff? At the very least, this should be removed. At the very most, reported to the authorities.
Rob & Sarah, are you on top of this?
Is anyone screening this stuff? At the very least, this should be removed. At the very most, reported to the authorities.
Rob & Sarah, are you on top of this?
Rob & Sarah went a hiding
All on a September day
Did they go shopping?
Did they go bopping or just to the Church to pray?
Where did they Went!
We know its not lent
And we don’t want a Christmas fast
So come out and play,
You’re too long away
And send out a new PodCast.
(It gets worse)
So Mormon. Atheist, Christian too,
Berate their return as well as the Jew
Buddhist, Pagan, Hindu and Sikh
Expect your return
Please sometime next week?
All on a September day
Did they go shopping?
Did they go bopping or just to the Church to pray?
Where did they Went!
We know its not lent
And we don’t want a Christmas fast
So come out and play,
You’re too long away
And send out a new PodCast.
(It gets worse)
So Mormon. Atheist, Christian too,
Berate their return as well as the Jew
Buddhist, Pagan, Hindu and Sikh
Expect your return
Please sometime next week?
Announcing the birth of a new blog.
I plan on finding a link to the essay "What went wrong?" by Fr. Paul Mankowski S.J. almost immediatly on my site for your consideration. It is older but I think it is an interesting take on the abuse scandle
I plan on finding a link to the essay "What went wrong?" by Fr. Paul Mankowski S.J. almost immediatly on my site for your consideration. It is older but I think it is an interesting take on the abuse scandle
posted by: bryan mckenzie on Mon, 11/20 07:46 PM EST
That is a real good question. While the LDS claim to follow Jesus, it is a convoluted perception of Jesus and Christianity that is not even remotely similar to the mainstream Christian denominations understanding that has existed for over 2000 years. Even the Book of Mormon, which speaks of Jesus appearing to a race of people that cannot and has not ever been established as ever existing, except in the mind of the BOM author and subsequent followers.
You won't find any reference to the crucifixion of Jesus nor any reference to the resurrection of Jesus in the BOM. LDS followers will claim that they also believe in the Bible which many do, however it is impossible for them to reconcile the views of the true teaching of the nature of God and the Trinity as taught in the Bible, with their teachings in the BOM which teach that the God and Jesus were actually both men, and were conceived and were born of woman, before they became gods. LDS folks will walk away from this type of conflict as they are ill equiped to explain the discrepency. I am eager for any LDS follower to explain these discrepencies. I don't expect any current LDS folks to come forward, but can any ex-LDS share their understanding in this realm? At what point do ex-LDS succumb to reason and walk away from these problems and embrace the true Christian Faith?
You won't find any reference to the crucifixion of Jesus nor any reference to the resurrection of Jesus in the BOM. LDS followers will claim that they also believe in the Bible which many do, however it is impossible for them to reconcile the views of the true teaching of the nature of God and the Trinity as taught in the Bible, with their teachings in the BOM which teach that the God and Jesus were actually both men, and were conceived and were born of woman, before they became gods. LDS folks will walk away from this type of conflict as they are ill equiped to explain the discrepency. I am eager for any LDS follower to explain these discrepencies. I don't expect any current LDS folks to come forward, but can any ex-LDS share their understanding in this realm? At what point do ex-LDS succumb to reason and walk away from these problems and embrace the true Christian Faith?
As other Protestant denominations, also LDS do not use pictures or religious symbols, I think...
But hey, Rob & Sarah, please would you be kind/decent enough to give a sign of life?
Heck, you always talk so fervently about the CMP community, but where are you now? I can't imagine that, despite busy household & job life, you can't find a minute to say hello here...
But hey, Rob & Sarah, please would you be kind/decent enough to give a sign of life?
Heck, you always talk so fervently about the CMP community, but where are you now? I can't imagine that, despite busy household & job life, you can't find a minute to say hello here...
What a shame. CMP was a really good podcast. I sure hope that there have been no personal tragedies in Josh and Sarah's life that has caused them to disappear. A weekly podcast was probably too much to handle, but I do hope they can come back again even with an abbreviated podcast.
They have not been very active on their myspace page... Now we are starting to sound like stalkers. ;) We hope Sarah and Rob are doing well. Have a Blessed New Year!
posted by: Josh from Ohio on Wed, 1/3 11:08 AM EST
Tanya and Chris from the Life on Fire PodCast have taken a huge break too. All of my favorite PodCasts are fading away...
posted by: Josh from Ohio on Wed, 1/3 11:09 AM EST
All good and well, but sincerely, I miss Sarah and Rob quite a lot. What about writing them personally? I may suppose they won't let us down for no reason. We have always understood them when they made a break for family reasons. And when they promised during the last podcast to not let us wait that long again, we believed and trusted them. But now we have no clue... Are they out of inspiration? Are they really too busy with the family and job? Or has some tragedy occurred that prevents them ftom staying in touch?
Still, I hope that this is not the end of a great podcast and community. C'mon, Rob and Sarah, give us just a sign of life! Happy New Year everyone!
Still, I hope that this is not the end of a great podcast and community. C'mon, Rob and Sarah, give us just a sign of life! Happy New Year everyone!
Maybe their Mac died... Do Macs Die?
posted by: Josh from Ohio on Mon, 1/8 12:48 PM EST
Hi everybody! Ouch...I guess we deserve some of the above comments...I think I need a band-aid. Both Rob and I have been so busy lately that we haven't done a podcast in a reeeaaallllyyy long time. Rob has been traveling more than ever and with all of us on the go we usually reserve the weekends for family time. We've been working very hard to find a good work-home- recreation balance, and we are still figuring it out and seeing if podcasting will fit back in. Rob was gone almost the entire month of December which is why we didn't do any Christmas shows. We were not ignoring this special time of year and how important Advent and Christmas are to us Catholics. We were just trying to make the most out of what limited time we had together as a family. As far as the posts go and answering emails...it's a case of I thought Rob was still keeping up to date and he thought I was and as you well know...neither of us were! As far as eBay goes...well...I'll always have time for that because it fills in the time while Rob is gone. We appreciate the concern and for those of you who were genuinly worried, thank you. It does mean a lot to us. For those of you who are disgusted with us, well I don't know what to say. We have always had people mad at us for one reason or other. Maybe that's another reason we are not so gung-ho as we used to be. We have so many things we want to devote our time too and this podcast takes an enormous amount of time to prep, record, mix, upload and then emails and blog content that it brings us down to have negativity directed at us after each show we put out. To spend so much time on something only to have arrows slung at us is not as worth it as it used to be. As far as the "community" , I am very happy to see you guys still keeping the conversation going. Remember though that we made an announcement that we would be changing the content to go along with what you the "community" had to contribute in the way of emails and voicemails. Let me tell ya...not too many people in the "community" had anything to contibute. There are always you few who are always contributing...you know who you are!...and we do appreciate it but all in all the "community" just hasn't pulled through. So with those two huge dissapointments for us...the negativity we receive and the less than stellar response to our request for help from the "community" for content...it doesn't always seem the best way to spend our very limited time. We may still do a show from time to time but right now I couldn't tell you when. For those of you who genuinely care, again, Thank You...and we know you'll understand that we need to really focus our time on our family. We are very lucky as Catholics because there are so many great podcasts out there for us to draw inspiration from. Take care everyone and we hope to be on your iPod soon!
Hey Sarah,
Thanks for taking the time to post. I genuinely was starting to worry about you guys. Rob really needs to get a job closer to home. I know the money is probably good, but kids are only kids for so long. Shanon and I are expecting our first child next month. I am excited and a little nervous at the same time. God Bless you guys and all that you do.
Thanks for taking the time to post. I genuinely was starting to worry about you guys. Rob really needs to get a job closer to home. I know the money is probably good, but kids are only kids for so long. Shanon and I are expecting our first child next month. I am excited and a little nervous at the same time. God Bless you guys and all that you do.
Thanks for the update! Family is first, always, and pity on those who don't get it.
Mark--whose daughter is marrying LDS--I am a Catholic married to an LDS person. First question, is she planning a Catholic ceremony? Please encourage her to do so. She doesn't have to have Mass and they can tailor the ceremony to be a little more inclusive of his faith, but it's so very important that she marry in the church to stay in good standing and be able to receive the Eucharist. I am just NOW getting our marriage validated (he had to get an annulment) and man, let me tell you, I have missed all these years not being able to take the Eucharist. :( Secondly, since she is not LDS, she cannot marry in their Temple with him. If she were to convert to LDS and get married in the TEmple, then yes, you and your family would be excluded from the actual ceremony. But from what I gather, their "sealing" ceremony isn't as formal as ours, with music and the whole procession and all that. I wish her and her new husband a lifetime of happiness and mutual respect. :) And I hope I helped you some.
Mark--whose daughter is marrying LDS--I am a Catholic married to an LDS person. First question, is she planning a Catholic ceremony? Please encourage her to do so. She doesn't have to have Mass and they can tailor the ceremony to be a little more inclusive of his faith, but it's so very important that she marry in the church to stay in good standing and be able to receive the Eucharist. I am just NOW getting our marriage validated (he had to get an annulment) and man, let me tell you, I have missed all these years not being able to take the Eucharist. :( Secondly, since she is not LDS, she cannot marry in their Temple with him. If she were to convert to LDS and get married in the TEmple, then yes, you and your family would be excluded from the actual ceremony. But from what I gather, their "sealing" ceremony isn't as formal as ours, with music and the whole procession and all that. I wish her and her new husband a lifetime of happiness and mutual respect. :) And I hope I helped you some.
posted by: Lynn on Sat, 1/13 01:43 PM EST
I sympathize with your position on the podcast. Although I thought that I would be able to contibute to the podcast, I have many duities, although not as many as you. So I do not really see this happening, except of course this April. I pray to God that something(s) holy indelible, santifying, and sacramental will occur.... on the evening of the seventh to be exact.
Geoff
Geoff
Lynn,
Thank you for your reply. My daughter was baptized LDS last year and is planning a sealing in July. We have been advised that we cannot participate in the wedding/sealing because we are unclean. (You can imagine our response to that one!!)
As she grew up Catholic in a strong RC family, we are besides our selves with this development. We love her dearly and are not standing in her way, however we are not silent in voicing our hurt in our being excluded in the ceremony. We proposed a Justice of the Peace to include everyone, but they declined.
We can only pray that she will see the light and realize how much her actions and words are hurting her family. Not a real good way to start a marriage for sure.
We will respect her wishes not to be involved. What else can we do?
Mark
Thank you for your reply. My daughter was baptized LDS last year and is planning a sealing in July. We have been advised that we cannot participate in the wedding/sealing because we are unclean. (You can imagine our response to that one!!)
As she grew up Catholic in a strong RC family, we are besides our selves with this development. We love her dearly and are not standing in her way, however we are not silent in voicing our hurt in our being excluded in the ceremony. We proposed a Justice of the Peace to include everyone, but they declined.
We can only pray that she will see the light and realize how much her actions and words are hurting her family. Not a real good way to start a marriage for sure.
We will respect her wishes not to be involved. What else can we do?
Mark
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posted by: IT Training on Mon, 4/6 02:44 AM EDT
Hope all is well. Very busy at the moment, but have a request from a few of the Traditionalist Pro Latin Mass Catholics......
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