Sun, 20 August 2006  Thanks for all of the emails and posts on the web site over the past several weeks. It felt really good to turn out a new show and get some of the podcast rust off of us that has developed. Please continue to send us your conversion stories, thoughts & reactions to topics discussed along with anything else you would like to contribute!Comments[378] |
Great job, as usual, on your podcast -- it was well done. Of course, I take a very different view on the Church of Jesus Christ than you do, but that's a given.
Just a few comments to consider:
(1) Your emailer Mark was off-base on his description of FARMS (http://farms.byu.edu/). Part of its emphasis is "apologetic" in the sense that Mark means, i.e. a direct response to vituperative and demeaning anti-Mormon expositions. These particular FARMS writings take such negative treatments of the faith of Latter-day Saints (such as the book that Mark mentions he is reading, Quinn's Mormonism and the Magic World View) and examine the claims made in those books. Often, in this particular type of FARMS writing, such works are exposed as claiming too much or as giving a spin to historical evidence that is not warranted but rather is only conjecture. In the case of Vogel, for example, Dan Peterson's review (and others' reviews) separates out Vogel's wild speculations meant to force the conclusion that Joseph Smith was a fraud from what actually exists of the historical record. But that is only a small part of what FARMS does. FARMS consists of scholars at BYU and elsewhere, each trained in their academic disciplines and who publish regularly in their areas of professional expertise, who, on the side and completely without remuneration (e.g. I mentioned Dan Peterson above -- he is a Professor of Near Eastern Civilization and publishes in his area of expertise; any work he does for FARMS is completely on the side of his actual professorial career and he is not paid for FARMS work) also apply their disciplines to the field of ancient studies as they relate to Latter-day Saint scripture, origins, and doctrine. That is, FARMS publications are more often investigations into ancient studies that are not a response of any kind to any specific anti-Mormon attack; rather, these scholars have a genuine interest in how the LDS faith intersects with their areas of expertise in academic fields relating to ancient languages, anthropology, archaeology, etc. and they proceed accordingly. Many of the authors have Ph.D.s in their fields and publish work for FARMS that rigorously applies their disciplines to the LDS faith. They are fascinating materials to read and one can learn a lot from them. Mark, apparently, has formed a view that FARMS is only a response to anti-Mormon material when in reality it is far more than that.
Mark might be interested in looking around a number of blogs maintained by Latter-day Saints for interesting discussions about points of doctrines or insights into the LDS faith. Many of these blogs are aggregated at www.ldsblogs.org. These are grass-roots efforts, not sponsored by the Church, but if he harbors the misperception that the Church is some kind of dangerous cult or something, then reading these might give him some insight to the contrary. I understand his concern about his daughter's investigation of the Church of Jesus Christ since he is a believing Catholic; but it can't hurt for him to formulate realistic views about what the Church of Jesus Christ is because, although it cannot alleviate the anxiety he will feel about his daughter leaving what he believes to the One True Church (I can empathize -- I would be very sad if one of my children decided to leave what I believe to be the only Church with God's authority on the earth, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), it can help alleviate any other concerns about the actual physical safety or well being of his daughter in the Church (no doubt some, perhaps many, people have tried to convince him otherwise).
(2) Sarah, as to definitive statements on what the Church believes, try the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the New and Old Testaments, and the Pearl of Great Price. Sorry, that was a bit flippant, I realize. I know you know this. I was surprised to hear you state that there is no source for definitive statements on what the Church believes. Sarah, you also know full well that the Church has a definitive stance on abortion; although it may be slightly different than the Catholic view, that does not mean it is not a definitive view. "Can't take a stand"? Please, Sarah, you simply know this isn't true. Your example of the LDS bishop suggesting an abortion is misleading; sure, it might have happened (I'm not calling you a liar) but it is certainly not the norm and, in fact, it is markedly not what bishops are supposed to do. The reality is that most bishops who follow their mandate counsel against abortion even in the only exceptions, i.e. cases of rape, incest, and/or serious risk to the life of the mother with the caveat that the woman involved should seek divine guidance as to whether it might be justified in her particular case. The preferred option, as any LDS bishop will tell you, is to counsel a mother to choose adoption if she is determined not to raise the child in her womb.
(3) You both mentioned the distortions contained in the Da Vinci Code; Sarah, for her part, having been inside the Church for much of her life, should know that books such as Vogel's treatment of Joseph Smith (casting Joseph Smith as a fraud) or many other anti-Mormon treatments of the LDS faith do the exact same thing as the Da Vinci Code: they take some facts but then distort them or spin them as negatively and as sinister as possible, and, since they are works of historical non-fiction, they draw the most negative inferences that the evidence can potentially support and try to convince the reader that those inferences are the only possible inferences and that Joseph Smith must be a fraud. Latter-day Saints believe that Joseph Smith was telling the truth about the origins of his prophetic calling because that is their faith (by the way, for your emailer Mark, Joseph Smith's teenage interest in divining rods and treasure seeking, i.e. the interest in folk magic that was entirely common in that region at the time, has no bearing on whether he is telling the truth about his First Vision; and, Sarah/Rob, calling Joseph a fraud because of the different "versions" of the First Vision is also a pretty slim peg to hang a rejection of Joseph Smith on). It's just a matter of faith. Sarah no longer shares that faith. No one can begrudge her that. But I hope she realizes that other peoples’ inferences from a relatively slim historical record are not equivalent to historical fact and that such leading treatments that result in the conclusion that Joseph Smith was a fraud are not the only way to view the historical record.
(4) A final note: I believe I espouse the pretty typical LDS view when I say to any readers here or listeners of the podcast that I would prefer to see you as strong members of the Catholic Church than as atheists or non-Christians. I wish you the best if you are on your road to Catholicism but also advise any who are going there from the Church of Jesus Christ to reconsider the truth and knowledge that you will be giving up by leaving the Church before you make a final decision. If you have already made your decision, then I hope you will be happy in the Catholic Church! I have a definite Holy Envy for many things Catholic and applaud your choice to worship the Lord Jesus Christ in the way that feels most correct to you.
Just a few comments to consider:
(1) Your emailer Mark was off-base on his description of FARMS (http://farms.byu.edu/). Part of its emphasis is "apologetic" in the sense that Mark means, i.e. a direct response to vituperative and demeaning anti-Mormon expositions. These particular FARMS writings take such negative treatments of the faith of Latter-day Saints (such as the book that Mark mentions he is reading, Quinn's Mormonism and the Magic World View) and examine the claims made in those books. Often, in this particular type of FARMS writing, such works are exposed as claiming too much or as giving a spin to historical evidence that is not warranted but rather is only conjecture. In the case of Vogel, for example, Dan Peterson's review (and others' reviews) separates out Vogel's wild speculations meant to force the conclusion that Joseph Smith was a fraud from what actually exists of the historical record. But that is only a small part of what FARMS does. FARMS consists of scholars at BYU and elsewhere, each trained in their academic disciplines and who publish regularly in their areas of professional expertise, who, on the side and completely without remuneration (e.g. I mentioned Dan Peterson above -- he is a Professor of Near Eastern Civilization and publishes in his area of expertise; any work he does for FARMS is completely on the side of his actual professorial career and he is not paid for FARMS work) also apply their disciplines to the field of ancient studies as they relate to Latter-day Saint scripture, origins, and doctrine. That is, FARMS publications are more often investigations into ancient studies that are not a response of any kind to any specific anti-Mormon attack; rather, these scholars have a genuine interest in how the LDS faith intersects with their areas of expertise in academic fields relating to ancient languages, anthropology, archaeology, etc. and they proceed accordingly. Many of the authors have Ph.D.s in their fields and publish work for FARMS that rigorously applies their disciplines to the LDS faith. They are fascinating materials to read and one can learn a lot from them. Mark, apparently, has formed a view that FARMS is only a response to anti-Mormon material when in reality it is far more than that.
Mark might be interested in looking around a number of blogs maintained by Latter-day Saints for interesting discussions about points of doctrines or insights into the LDS faith. Many of these blogs are aggregated at www.ldsblogs.org. These are grass-roots efforts, not sponsored by the Church, but if he harbors the misperception that the Church is some kind of dangerous cult or something, then reading these might give him some insight to the contrary. I understand his concern about his daughter's investigation of the Church of Jesus Christ since he is a believing Catholic; but it can't hurt for him to formulate realistic views about what the Church of Jesus Christ is because, although it cannot alleviate the anxiety he will feel about his daughter leaving what he believes to the One True Church (I can empathize -- I would be very sad if one of my children decided to leave what I believe to be the only Church with God's authority on the earth, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), it can help alleviate any other concerns about the actual physical safety or well being of his daughter in the Church (no doubt some, perhaps many, people have tried to convince him otherwise).
(2) Sarah, as to definitive statements on what the Church believes, try the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the New and Old Testaments, and the Pearl of Great Price. Sorry, that was a bit flippant, I realize. I know you know this. I was surprised to hear you state that there is no source for definitive statements on what the Church believes. Sarah, you also know full well that the Church has a definitive stance on abortion; although it may be slightly different than the Catholic view, that does not mean it is not a definitive view. "Can't take a stand"? Please, Sarah, you simply know this isn't true. Your example of the LDS bishop suggesting an abortion is misleading; sure, it might have happened (I'm not calling you a liar) but it is certainly not the norm and, in fact, it is markedly not what bishops are supposed to do. The reality is that most bishops who follow their mandate counsel against abortion even in the only exceptions, i.e. cases of rape, incest, and/or serious risk to the life of the mother with the caveat that the woman involved should seek divine guidance as to whether it might be justified in her particular case. The preferred option, as any LDS bishop will tell you, is to counsel a mother to choose adoption if she is determined not to raise the child in her womb.
(3) You both mentioned the distortions contained in the Da Vinci Code; Sarah, for her part, having been inside the Church for much of her life, should know that books such as Vogel's treatment of Joseph Smith (casting Joseph Smith as a fraud) or many other anti-Mormon treatments of the LDS faith do the exact same thing as the Da Vinci Code: they take some facts but then distort them or spin them as negatively and as sinister as possible, and, since they are works of historical non-fiction, they draw the most negative inferences that the evidence can potentially support and try to convince the reader that those inferences are the only possible inferences and that Joseph Smith must be a fraud. Latter-day Saints believe that Joseph Smith was telling the truth about the origins of his prophetic calling because that is their faith (by the way, for your emailer Mark, Joseph Smith's teenage interest in divining rods and treasure seeking, i.e. the interest in folk magic that was entirely common in that region at the time, has no bearing on whether he is telling the truth about his First Vision; and, Sarah/Rob, calling Joseph a fraud because of the different "versions" of the First Vision is also a pretty slim peg to hang a rejection of Joseph Smith on). It's just a matter of faith. Sarah no longer shares that faith. No one can begrudge her that. But I hope she realizes that other peoples’ inferences from a relatively slim historical record are not equivalent to historical fact and that such leading treatments that result in the conclusion that Joseph Smith was a fraud are not the only way to view the historical record.
(4) A final note: I believe I espouse the pretty typical LDS view when I say to any readers here or listeners of the podcast that I would prefer to see you as strong members of the Catholic Church than as atheists or non-Christians. I wish you the best if you are on your road to Catholicism but also advise any who are going there from the Church of Jesus Christ to reconsider the truth and knowledge that you will be giving up by leaving the Church before you make a final decision. If you have already made your decision, then I hope you will be happy in the Catholic Church! I have a definite Holy Envy for many things Catholic and applaud your choice to worship the Lord Jesus Christ in the way that feels most correct to you.
posted by: john f. on Tue, 8/22 10:34 AM EDT
Dear John F.,
I found your post interesting, and wanted to ask you more about one portion of it. If you poke around here much, you probably already know that I'm an ex-LDS Catholic. And I also, in my Mormon days, was very distressed by what seemed like the lack of definitive statements on doctrine. I still tell people who ask me "what Mormons really believe" that there just isn't any good, authoritative source for answers.
You mention the books of scripture. Obviously, Mormons recognize them as authoritative, but that doesn't mean that they're straightforward or helpful in explaining what Mormons believe. Catholics, remember, don't believe in 'sola scriptura'; rather, they echo the eunuch who, asked by St. Philip whether he understands the Scriptures, answers, "How can I, unless some man should guide me? (Acts: 8:31)" Catholics cede the authority for interpreting scripture to the magisterium, which then codifies Catholic beliefs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If you want to know what the Church thinks about a given theological, moral, or liturgical question, you can usually look it up just as in an encyclopedia. Of course, sometimes there is no authoritative Catholic position on a question, and you'll find that the language of the CCC is wonderfully circumspect, saying exactly what needs to be said and no more. And if you want a more detailed explanation of what the Church of Rome does or doesn't believe, you can pick up Denzinger's "Sources of Catholic Dogma" or Ott's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma."
Going on the basis of scripture alone, you might get all sorts of wrong ideas about Mormon belief. For example, when I was a Mormon, I read the BoM a few times, and was surprised to find that it seemed to be entirely Trinitarian, or if not that, then at least to hold that the Father and Son were the exact same person (there's some technical name for that theological view, but it escapes me at the moment.) At any rate, an ordinary reader certainly would not walk away thinking that the Father and Son are two entirely separate people, which is what you'll learn in Mormon Sunday School. You would also get the idea from the BoM that polygamy is gravely sinful. Doesn't Jacob have a whole passage about that? But obviously that isn't the Church's position. I'm a little rusty on my BoM references now, but my impression as of several years ago was that the Book of Mormon was theologically much more harmonious with mainline Christianity, while the D&C brought in a lot of the stranger and more distinctively Mormon doctrines. I won't irk you with my sociological explanation of why that might be, but let's just say, a person who just read through all those books would not be at all clear on what Mormons think.
Bringing the Bible into it further complicates matters, obviously. If you think the Bible can be taken in itself as a reliable summary of doctrine, consider the multitude of Protestant groups who take it as their sole authority. They believe a whole range of different things. If you press hard enough for a codified source of doctrine, you'll normally get referred to McConkie or Talmadge, but there's no special reason why they should be held as authoritative, and both say many things that don't seem to have been embraced by the LDS Church as a whole. They're just some of the relatively few people who have written what seem to be serious books about doctrine.
On the whole, it seems to me that Mormonism is rather an anti-intellectual faith, more concerned about personal details of family and community than about working out theological or doctrinal truths with precision. The result is what you would expect -- strong families and communities, but a lot of vagueness when it comes to doctrine.
Rachel
I found your post interesting, and wanted to ask you more about one portion of it. If you poke around here much, you probably already know that I'm an ex-LDS Catholic. And I also, in my Mormon days, was very distressed by what seemed like the lack of definitive statements on doctrine. I still tell people who ask me "what Mormons really believe" that there just isn't any good, authoritative source for answers.
You mention the books of scripture. Obviously, Mormons recognize them as authoritative, but that doesn't mean that they're straightforward or helpful in explaining what Mormons believe. Catholics, remember, don't believe in 'sola scriptura'; rather, they echo the eunuch who, asked by St. Philip whether he understands the Scriptures, answers, "How can I, unless some man should guide me? (Acts: 8:31)" Catholics cede the authority for interpreting scripture to the magisterium, which then codifies Catholic beliefs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If you want to know what the Church thinks about a given theological, moral, or liturgical question, you can usually look it up just as in an encyclopedia. Of course, sometimes there is no authoritative Catholic position on a question, and you'll find that the language of the CCC is wonderfully circumspect, saying exactly what needs to be said and no more. And if you want a more detailed explanation of what the Church of Rome does or doesn't believe, you can pick up Denzinger's "Sources of Catholic Dogma" or Ott's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma."
Going on the basis of scripture alone, you might get all sorts of wrong ideas about Mormon belief. For example, when I was a Mormon, I read the BoM a few times, and was surprised to find that it seemed to be entirely Trinitarian, or if not that, then at least to hold that the Father and Son were the exact same person (there's some technical name for that theological view, but it escapes me at the moment.) At any rate, an ordinary reader certainly would not walk away thinking that the Father and Son are two entirely separate people, which is what you'll learn in Mormon Sunday School. You would also get the idea from the BoM that polygamy is gravely sinful. Doesn't Jacob have a whole passage about that? But obviously that isn't the Church's position. I'm a little rusty on my BoM references now, but my impression as of several years ago was that the Book of Mormon was theologically much more harmonious with mainline Christianity, while the D&C brought in a lot of the stranger and more distinctively Mormon doctrines. I won't irk you with my sociological explanation of why that might be, but let's just say, a person who just read through all those books would not be at all clear on what Mormons think.
Bringing the Bible into it further complicates matters, obviously. If you think the Bible can be taken in itself as a reliable summary of doctrine, consider the multitude of Protestant groups who take it as their sole authority. They believe a whole range of different things. If you press hard enough for a codified source of doctrine, you'll normally get referred to McConkie or Talmadge, but there's no special reason why they should be held as authoritative, and both say many things that don't seem to have been embraced by the LDS Church as a whole. They're just some of the relatively few people who have written what seem to be serious books about doctrine.
On the whole, it seems to me that Mormonism is rather an anti-intellectual faith, more concerned about personal details of family and community than about working out theological or doctrinal truths with precision. The result is what you would expect -- strong families and communities, but a lot of vagueness when it comes to doctrine.
Rachel
Rachel,
I like what you said about how Protestant groups who take The Bible as their sole authority believe a whole range of different things. We as Catholic need to remember the The Holy Bible is a Catholic Book. I worked with a Protestant lady who was given the impression by an ex-Catholic that Catholics us the Catechism in place of Sacred Scripture. This is an example of many Catholics who leave their faith are cluless and take with them their ignorance of the faith. I was one of these people.
Many Protestants think that the Catholic Church added the 7 "extra" books to the Bible, but in actuallity these books were removed by Protestants later on. The Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) included the deuterocanonical books. And of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the apostles viewed the deuterocanonical books as part of the canon of the Old Testament.
I like what you said about how Protestant groups who take The Bible as their sole authority believe a whole range of different things. We as Catholic need to remember the The Holy Bible is a Catholic Book. I worked with a Protestant lady who was given the impression by an ex-Catholic that Catholics us the Catechism in place of Sacred Scripture. This is an example of many Catholics who leave their faith are cluless and take with them their ignorance of the faith. I was one of these people.
Many Protestants think that the Catholic Church added the 7 "extra" books to the Bible, but in actuallity these books were removed by Protestants later on. The Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) included the deuterocanonical books. And of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the apostles viewed the deuterocanonical books as part of the canon of the Old Testament.
No. The LDS canon includes the books of the Bible as translated (correctly) in the King James Version, and no others. That is not to say they are not of value, however.
By the way, it would be wonderful if transcripts were made of each podcast, for rapid perusal.
By the way, it would be wonderful if transcripts were made of each podcast, for rapid perusal.
By the way, although we do not have any canonical books outside of what we consider to be Holy Scripture (King James Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price), we do indeed rely on the prophetic gift of the President of the Church, his two Counselors, and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, to give us inspired and revelatory guidance as to the proper interpretation of the scriptures.
It is worth noting that we consider the actual practice of the Church to be the interpretation of the scriptures, generally more so than abstract theological principles, although members are encouraged to pursue those by study and by faith. However, following Peter, we consider a godly walk and conversation lead to a far greater knowledge of Christ than scholarship alone.
"For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:8)
It is worth noting that we consider the actual practice of the Church to be the interpretation of the scriptures, generally more so than abstract theological principles, although members are encouraged to pursue those by study and by faith. However, following Peter, we consider a godly walk and conversation lead to a far greater knowledge of Christ than scholarship alone.
"For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:8)
"It is worth noting that we consider the actual practice of the Church to be the interpretation of the scriptures, generally more so than abstract theological principles..."
Very good, Mark Butler, but surely this is not an either/or sort of choice! Catholics do not put their trust in "scholarship alone", but rather contend that righteous living and sound theology are mutually supportive. The Church Fathers repeatedly warn that a dissolute life will hinder the intellect in its quest for truth, but at the same time, it is important to remember that following Christ involves more than just being a decent and upstanding member of the community. The Gospels should not be treated as merely a rule book for helping everybody get along. "Christ called himself Truth, not culture."
Very good, Mark Butler, but surely this is not an either/or sort of choice! Catholics do not put their trust in "scholarship alone", but rather contend that righteous living and sound theology are mutually supportive. The Church Fathers repeatedly warn that a dissolute life will hinder the intellect in its quest for truth, but at the same time, it is important to remember that following Christ involves more than just being a decent and upstanding member of the community. The Gospels should not be treated as merely a rule book for helping everybody get along. "Christ called himself Truth, not culture."
FAIR and FARMS have a simple problem: despite the huge amount of spinning and clutching at straws that they engage in, NO evidence supports the premise of the BOM as a "history." The reason potential converts are asked to pray to determine if the BOM is true is that If it were true, it would be self evident and wouldn't need any special feelings to validate, so the SCC is reduced to telling the credulous that warm fuzzies validate the BOM.
SCC? I've seen you use this abbreviation before ebrown but I don't know what it refers to.
As to your point about "proof" of the Book of Mormon, I hope you are willing to hold your own faith to the same standard of "proof" you appear to be expecting of Latter-day Saints. An Oxford mate of mine (currently a Ph.D. candidate at Johns Hopkins University) has made this observation:
[I]f you were to pass the New Testament through the same lens of hyper-critical scholarship that some do the Joseph Smith story then Jesus would not come out well. Not well at all. This is my own experience from teaching a college New Testament class where I am required to take a scholarly and secular approach to the text. The result is that I see many of my Christian students fidget and squirm as they are bombarded with issues of Gospel historicity and the so-called "historical Jesus" who appears to bear little resemblance to the "faithful history" promoted by Paul and other early Christians.Additionally, ebrown, you are not correct that "no evidence" supports the Book of Mormon as a "history", although you are free to believe that if it helps you sleep at night. I agree there is no absolute proof, at least not yet. An interesting question would be: what would you personally do if e.g. a manuscript, previously unknown, called the "Writings of the prophet Zenos" or the "Book of Zenos" were unearthed tomorrow in the Near East somewhere that dated to pre-exilic times and whose content included the material referenced from the (old world) prophet "Zenos" in the Book of Mormon (see e.g. 1 Nephi 19:10, 12, 16; Jacob 5:1; Alma 33:3, 13, 15; 3 Nephi 10:16 to name a few)? Would this not count as "proof" of the Book of Mormon as a historical document because these hypothetical writings of Zenos were found in the Near East rather than in Meso-america? If you concede that a discovery of the writings of Zenos would count as "proof" of the Book of Mormon as a historical source, then why do you not consider e.g. the discovery of the altar of NHM to be persuasive evidence, even though they are in the Old World? Surely, you need to revise your conclusion that "NO evidence supports the premise of the BOM as a 'history'," or at least, I hope you would. If not, that's fine too.
As to your point about "proof" of the Book of Mormon, I hope you are willing to hold your own faith to the same standard of "proof" you appear to be expecting of Latter-day Saints. An Oxford mate of mine (currently a Ph.D. candidate at Johns Hopkins University) has made this observation:
[I]f you were to pass the New Testament through the same lens of hyper-critical scholarship that some do the Joseph Smith story then Jesus would not come out well. Not well at all. This is my own experience from teaching a college New Testament class where I am required to take a scholarly and secular approach to the text. The result is that I see many of my Christian students fidget and squirm as they are bombarded with issues of Gospel historicity and the so-called "historical Jesus" who appears to bear little resemblance to the "faithful history" promoted by Paul and other early Christians.Additionally, ebrown, you are not correct that "no evidence" supports the Book of Mormon as a "history", although you are free to believe that if it helps you sleep at night. I agree there is no absolute proof, at least not yet. An interesting question would be: what would you personally do if e.g. a manuscript, previously unknown, called the "Writings of the prophet Zenos" or the "Book of Zenos" were unearthed tomorrow in the Near East somewhere that dated to pre-exilic times and whose content included the material referenced from the (old world) prophet "Zenos" in the Book of Mormon (see e.g. 1 Nephi 19:10, 12, 16; Jacob 5:1; Alma 33:3, 13, 15; 3 Nephi 10:16 to name a few)? Would this not count as "proof" of the Book of Mormon as a historical document because these hypothetical writings of Zenos were found in the Near East rather than in Meso-america? If you concede that a discovery of the writings of Zenos would count as "proof" of the Book of Mormon as a historical source, then why do you not consider e.g. the discovery of the altar of NHM to be persuasive evidence, even though they are in the Old World? Surely, you need to revise your conclusion that "NO evidence supports the premise of the BOM as a 'history'," or at least, I hope you would. If not, that's fine too.
posted by: john f. on Tue, 8/29 01:05 PM EDT
oops, it looks like my blockquote tags somehow got broken.
posted by: john f. on Tue, 8/29 01:46 PM EDT
One might consider the altar at Nahom to be evidence, though certainly not proof.
Even FARMS uses the quote: "the first actual archaeological evidence for the historicity of the Book of Mormon"
The first, and thus far only. To that, one can say "even a broken clock is right twice a day". You'll need more than just a single name.
I'm not sure I understand your argument about the hypothetical "Book of Zenos."
Yes, I'm sure we'll [b]all[/b] feel silly when Zarahemla is unearthed and we find the remains of armored soliders with pockets full of metal coins and the fossils of extinct American elephants, horses and honey bees.
Until then, forgive us if we remain skeptical.
Even FARMS uses the quote: "the first actual archaeological evidence for the historicity of the Book of Mormon"
The first, and thus far only. To that, one can say "even a broken clock is right twice a day". You'll need more than just a single name.
I'm not sure I understand your argument about the hypothetical "Book of Zenos."
Yes, I'm sure we'll [b]all[/b] feel silly when Zarahemla is unearthed and we find the remains of armored soliders with pockets full of metal coins and the fossils of extinct American elephants, horses and honey bees.
Until then, forgive us if we remain skeptical.
Yup, NO EVIDENCE, as even john f admits. As for the Bible, regardless of any miracles or extraordinary events, it is a collection of books from a people who actually existed, which culture can be verified by archaeolgy, anthropology, and historical materials. Jesus fits within his time culturally and religiously, which, of course, adds weight to his historicity.
ebrown, this will probably be the last time I communicate with you on blogs, since you are manifestly uninterested in a good-faith discussion. Your comment of 1:28 am demonstrates this fact.
I never said anywhere that "no evidence" exists for the historicity of the Book of Mormon. In fact, I do not believe that is true. In my comment, which you do not appear to have read carefully, I mentioned, for example, the altar of NHM as at least one piece of evidence that there must be something more to the historicity of the Book of Mormon than "Joseph lied." The point of my comment was that you simply have to revise your position about "no evidence" if you are willing to be honest. But, as I said, you naturally remain free to claim there is NO EVIDENCE of the historicity of the Book of Mormon if that helps you sleep at night.
I never said anywhere that "no evidence" exists for the historicity of the Book of Mormon. In fact, I do not believe that is true. In my comment, which you do not appear to have read carefully, I mentioned, for example, the altar of NHM as at least one piece of evidence that there must be something more to the historicity of the Book of Mormon than "Joseph lied." The point of my comment was that you simply have to revise your position about "no evidence" if you are willing to be honest. But, as I said, you naturally remain free to claim there is NO EVIDENCE of the historicity of the Book of Mormon if that helps you sleep at night.
posted by: john f. on Wed, 8/30 12:11 PM EDT
cernovog: I do not begrudge you or anyone else their skepticism. As to my example with the Book of Zenos, I can see why that was a little confusing, especially given the formatting problems of that comment.
The point was simply to ask whether, if such a thing as the Book of Zenos were found somewhere in Israel or elsewhere in the Near East, that discovery would be discounted as evidence of the historicity of the Book of Mormon because it was discovered in the Near East and not in Meso-america.
As for your quip about discovering the city of Zarahemla, it think it would indeed be interesting to see what exactly ex and anti-Mormons would say about that. But I see you have a high level of confidence in what will or will not be discovered in the future. That's fine. I just take a different approach.
The point was simply to ask whether, if such a thing as the Book of Zenos were found somewhere in Israel or elsewhere in the Near East, that discovery would be discounted as evidence of the historicity of the Book of Mormon because it was discovered in the Near East and not in Meso-america.
As for your quip about discovering the city of Zarahemla, it think it would indeed be interesting to see what exactly ex and anti-Mormons would say about that. But I see you have a high level of confidence in what will or will not be discovered in the future. That's fine. I just take a different approach.
posted by: john f. on Wed, 8/30 12:17 PM EDT
does anyone know what SCC is supposed to refer to?
posted by: john f. on Wed, 8/30 12:29 PM EDT
What is everyone's top 5 PodCasts?
posted by: Joshua from Ohio on Fri, 9/8 12:38 PM EDT
My Top 5 Catholic:
1. CMP!
2. RosaryArmy
3. CatholicCast (even though Jayson hasn't had a new show in over a year and a half)
4. Catholic Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses
5. The Catholic Insider (I can't keep up with Daily Breakfast)
And if you consider Catholic Answers Radio show repackaged as a PodCast then they are at the top of the list. Life on Fire is another one that I get get excited about when I see a new show.
My Top Non-Catholic PodCasts:
1. Media Artist Secrets
2. LostCasts (Thanks to Rob and Sarah for mentioning that one to me)
3. One Minute How To
4. Glenn Beck Radio Show (Availible to insiders only)
5. Life in Ohio (a little dull, but his public transit story was funny as heck).
1. CMP!
2. RosaryArmy
3. CatholicCast (even though Jayson hasn't had a new show in over a year and a half)
4. Catholic Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses
5. The Catholic Insider (I can't keep up with Daily Breakfast)
And if you consider Catholic Answers Radio show repackaged as a PodCast then they are at the top of the list. Life on Fire is another one that I get get excited about when I see a new show.
My Top Non-Catholic PodCasts:
1. Media Artist Secrets
2. LostCasts (Thanks to Rob and Sarah for mentioning that one to me)
3. One Minute How To
4. Glenn Beck Radio Show (Availible to insiders only)
5. Life in Ohio (a little dull, but his public transit story was funny as heck).
Great question Josh...
Here's my list:
Catholic / Mormon related (no perticular order)
1. iPadre
2. Mormon Cast (video)
3. This Mormon Life
4. Rosary Army
5. Daily Breakfast
Non-Catholic/Mormon
1. Diggnation
2. MacCast
3. This Week in Tech
4. LostCasts
5. Bruce Williams (radio show ported to a podcast)
6. Daily Source Code (do people actually admit to listening to Adam Curry???)
...and the rest of the list:
* Rumor Girls (mostly to annoy Sarah...)
* Dave Ramsey (radio ported to a podcast)
* Tiki Bar TV
* U-Turn Cafe
later CMP'ers...
Here's my list:
Catholic / Mormon related (no perticular order)
1. iPadre
2. Mormon Cast (video)
3. This Mormon Life
4. Rosary Army
5. Daily Breakfast
Non-Catholic/Mormon
1. Diggnation
2. MacCast
3. This Week in Tech
4. LostCasts
5. Bruce Williams (radio show ported to a podcast)
6. Daily Source Code (do people actually admit to listening to Adam Curry???)
...and the rest of the list:
* Rumor Girls (mostly to annoy Sarah...)
* Dave Ramsey (radio ported to a podcast)
* Tiki Bar TV
* U-Turn Cafe
later CMP'ers...
1. Mysterious Universe
2. Discovery Channel Features
3. Secrets of Harry Potter
4. CMP
5. Asia Cast World News
Secrets of Harry Potter and CMP are the only religious podcasts I'm currently subscribed to and look for often. Every once in a while I'll grab a Daily Breakfast or Catholic Insider if there's a topic that jumps out at me.
2. Discovery Channel Features
3. Secrets of Harry Potter
4. CMP
5. Asia Cast World News
Secrets of Harry Potter and CMP are the only religious podcasts I'm currently subscribed to and look for often. Every once in a while I'll grab a Daily Breakfast or Catholic Insider if there's a topic that jumps out at me.
Rachael, Congats on you being baptised to a "full Catholuc" on Easter Vigil 2007; If I could I would congratulate you in person.
With what I have read and know there is no reference except the Book off Mormon and artices of Faith; I am in the "old school" of the Catholic Faith; meaning with every old testament reading you have a similar in the New; you can also do a "quick refeence check" by reading the Psalms of David
Sorry to those who disagree with me, as a Mormon's articles of Faith say "We believe in the Bible as long as it is written correctly"
We also believe in the Book of Mormon.
The quick solution to this topic is to summon the bishop, Stake President, and all Counselors before a judge; this action will force the above named to "conceed their beliefs" to the membership of the Mormon faith.
This action calls for a reading of The Constitution to the members of the Mormon faith for clarification of their beliefs.
There are three Bibles; Protestant; New International, King James version, and the Catholic; American Standard.
Lastly, I was disturbed by a cartoon clip sstating that Lucifer was the Brother of Jesus?!? Am I to understand that Scripure has that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. All Scriture points to it, not the clip I saw.
With what I have read and know there is no reference except the Book off Mormon and artices of Faith; I am in the "old school" of the Catholic Faith; meaning with every old testament reading you have a similar in the New; you can also do a "quick refeence check" by reading the Psalms of David
Sorry to those who disagree with me, as a Mormon's articles of Faith say "We believe in the Bible as long as it is written correctly"
We also believe in the Book of Mormon.
The quick solution to this topic is to summon the bishop, Stake President, and all Counselors before a judge; this action will force the above named to "conceed their beliefs" to the membership of the Mormon faith.
This action calls for a reading of The Constitution to the members of the Mormon faith for clarification of their beliefs.
There are three Bibles; Protestant; New International, King James version, and the Catholic; American Standard.
Lastly, I was disturbed by a cartoon clip sstating that Lucifer was the Brother of Jesus?!? Am I to understand that Scripure has that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. All Scriture points to it, not the clip I saw.
Top 5 Catholic Podcasts:
1. Catholic Classes (www.catholicclasses.org)
2. Catholic Mormon
3. Catholic Exchange's Rock Solid
4. Cahtolic Forum
5. Apologetics.com (not Catholic, but reformist)
Top 5 non-Catholic/religion:
1. Mac OS Ken
2. MacCore
3. This Week in Tech (TWIT)
4. Web design by Boag
5. Diggnation
Full Disclosure: Catholic Classes is my podcast so, of course, it is my favorite ;-) . RCIA is starting up so this podcast is a great theological dialogue that is used to accompany people's journey closer to God.
1. Catholic Classes (www.catholicclasses.org)
2. Catholic Mormon
3. Catholic Exchange's Rock Solid
4. Cahtolic Forum
5. Apologetics.com (not Catholic, but reformist)
Top 5 non-Catholic/religion:
1. Mac OS Ken
2. MacCore
3. This Week in Tech (TWIT)
4. Web design by Boag
5. Diggnation
Full Disclosure: Catholic Classes is my podcast so, of course, it is my favorite ;-) . RCIA is starting up so this podcast is a great theological dialogue that is used to accompany people's journey closer to God.
posted by: Dane Falkner on Tue, 9/19 05:11 PM EDT
Thank you John F. for your reply. I apologize for this delay in response to you as I am not a regular blogger.
You adequately gave the description of some in your fold that recommend that abortion should be performed in certain circumstances, yet this instruction by your members is solely at the whim of their level of belief or (mis)understanding of the rights of the unborn.
It is a substantitive truth in the Catholic Church (well reasoned, written and taught without questions) that freedom is essential in the search for the truth. I am sure that you would agree with this statement. But then I would question as to how a Mormon would reconcile denying freedom to an unborn child as complying with this agreement.
The Mormon faith is full of inconsistancies. I do not say this as a criticism, but as one who has approached their doctrine with reason. Much of the doctrine is irreconcilable with itself. If reason cannot substantiate the claims of Mormons through history, science, physical evidence, cooberative writings, eye witness accounts, then it is impossible to develop faith. Faith does not exist alone, but in cooberation with simple reason. Mormons, and particulary FARMS, I have found, do more to base their stance on faith alone. While the uninformed and naive think that faith alone is enough, this stance neither speaks to reason or acknowledges its intended purpose by God, for reason to enhance faith. Denying reason in proof of faith, denies the gift of God that allows many to find God. This is an essential problem that Mormons cannot reconcile. I am sure that you may have wondered why the Mormons spend so much time and effort in deflecting the same arguements regarding the lack of substantive evidence in the history of the mormon faith. It would give a reasonable person pause to question its entirety if reason were allowed to flourish. I direct you the encyclical on Faith and Reason written by PP John Paul II and found on the Vatical website.
The book by Michael Quinn, which is quickly dismissed by FARMS, you and most mormons, speaks to this dilemma. Here, a high ranking mormon theologian in a place of leadership at BYU, is excommunicated by the lds church, for bringing to light academic arguements as to the true history of the LDS. Instead of conducting an academic inquiry and study into his very developed and well researched work, he is summarily excommunicated. What is more surprising is that he still claims to be a believing mormon after all this.
John, I am perplexed and troubled by your argument that you presented to ebrown about the evidence of the Book of Mormon. My problem with your argument is that you hold up the evidence of the Book of Mormon by question the validity of the New Testament.
The problems that this causes is thus:
1) Aren't LDS Christians, or they claim to be? and if so
2) Don't LDS regard the New Testament as scripture and the fulfillment of the prophesy of the Old Testament? and if so
3) Why would you then hold up the New Testament as questionable text in order to support the BOM, and then agree that there is NO absolute proof for the BOM. (I read your response carefully, and you do make this statement!)
So essentially, you are agreeing with ebrown about her perception. Again, these types of arguements are self defeating and are problematic for outsiders looking in. How can you or other LDS folk reasonably argue the validity of your faith by making unreasonable arguements and denying objective perceptions?
I am also touched by your concern that I view the LDS as some kind of cult. As I understand the term "Cult", it is a secret organization, closed to outsiders, that perform secret ritualistic actions, and serve to deny its members access to outside influences and non cult members participation.
Again from my studies, LDS chooses to baptize its members in the so called "Christian" faith, even though those who have belonged to other main stream Christian churches and have already been baptized as Christians, need to be rebaptized. Other Christian (nonLDS) churches recognize the validity of a Christian Baptism amongst themselves, why not the LDS?
I have found that the LDS view other churches as "from satan". this is a long standing truth taught by LDS and never refuted, if they had, they would not need to re baptize the members.
LDS also prohibit the non LDS families of an LDS member in the same church for marriage. If this is not cult like, I don't know what is.
I won't go into the secret garments, the secret sealing ceremonies, the secret promises, the secret names and pledges of death if an LDS member reveals parts of their faith. But you get the message.
Also, for the record, I never mentioned anything about the Da Vinci Code. I have never read it nor intend to. I have no comment on that work of fiction and it does not represent anything of which I subsribe.
As for the slim evidence on Joseph Smiths diving rods, Smitty was deep in divining rods, magical incantations, treasure seeking, seer stones, astrology, seeing into the future, and he did all this for money. He conducted this trade well into his late 20's and continued to consult with astrological charts to determine when he should marry his 40+ wives and what months to have marital relations with them. Quite a guy, I must say. Am I unreasonable to question the validity of this guy? Am I the only one?
John, you seem like a reasonable man and there is a glimmer of hope in your Holy Envy of the Catholic Church. I can only pray that you cast the scales from your eyes and participate in theological discussion that trancends the LDS rhetoric. You certainly have a quest but your focus is misplaced. Take it off JS and put it on JC.
Thank you also for your concern of my Daughter. I am concerned as well.
Mark
You adequately gave the description of some in your fold that recommend that abortion should be performed in certain circumstances, yet this instruction by your members is solely at the whim of their level of belief or (mis)understanding of the rights of the unborn.
It is a substantitive truth in the Catholic Church (well reasoned, written and taught without questions) that freedom is essential in the search for the truth. I am sure that you would agree with this statement. But then I would question as to how a Mormon would reconcile denying freedom to an unborn child as complying with this agreement.
The Mormon faith is full of inconsistancies. I do not say this as a criticism, but as one who has approached their doctrine with reason. Much of the doctrine is irreconcilable with itself. If reason cannot substantiate the claims of Mormons through history, science, physical evidence, cooberative writings, eye witness accounts, then it is impossible to develop faith. Faith does not exist alone, but in cooberation with simple reason. Mormons, and particulary FARMS, I have found, do more to base their stance on faith alone. While the uninformed and naive think that faith alone is enough, this stance neither speaks to reason or acknowledges its intended purpose by God, for reason to enhance faith. Denying reason in proof of faith, denies the gift of God that allows many to find God. This is an essential problem that Mormons cannot reconcile. I am sure that you may have wondered why the Mormons spend so much time and effort in deflecting the same arguements regarding the lack of substantive evidence in the history of the mormon faith. It would give a reasonable person pause to question its entirety if reason were allowed to flourish. I direct you the encyclical on Faith and Reason written by PP John Paul II and found on the Vatical website.
The book by Michael Quinn, which is quickly dismissed by FARMS, you and most mormons, speaks to this dilemma. Here, a high ranking mormon theologian in a place of leadership at BYU, is excommunicated by the lds church, for bringing to light academic arguements as to the true history of the LDS. Instead of conducting an academic inquiry and study into his very developed and well researched work, he is summarily excommunicated. What is more surprising is that he still claims to be a believing mormon after all this.
John, I am perplexed and troubled by your argument that you presented to ebrown about the evidence of the Book of Mormon. My problem with your argument is that you hold up the evidence of the Book of Mormon by question the validity of the New Testament.
The problems that this causes is thus:
1) Aren't LDS Christians, or they claim to be? and if so
2) Don't LDS regard the New Testament as scripture and the fulfillment of the prophesy of the Old Testament? and if so
3) Why would you then hold up the New Testament as questionable text in order to support the BOM, and then agree that there is NO absolute proof for the BOM. (I read your response carefully, and you do make this statement!)
So essentially, you are agreeing with ebrown about her perception. Again, these types of arguements are self defeating and are problematic for outsiders looking in. How can you or other LDS folk reasonably argue the validity of your faith by making unreasonable arguements and denying objective perceptions?
I am also touched by your concern that I view the LDS as some kind of cult. As I understand the term "Cult", it is a secret organization, closed to outsiders, that perform secret ritualistic actions, and serve to deny its members access to outside influences and non cult members participation.
Again from my studies, LDS chooses to baptize its members in the so called "Christian" faith, even though those who have belonged to other main stream Christian churches and have already been baptized as Christians, need to be rebaptized. Other Christian (nonLDS) churches recognize the validity of a Christian Baptism amongst themselves, why not the LDS?
I have found that the LDS view other churches as "from satan". this is a long standing truth taught by LDS and never refuted, if they had, they would not need to re baptize the members.
LDS also prohibit the non LDS families of an LDS member in the same church for marriage. If this is not cult like, I don't know what is.
I won't go into the secret garments, the secret sealing ceremonies, the secret promises, the secret names and pledges of death if an LDS member reveals parts of their faith. But you get the message.
Also, for the record, I never mentioned anything about the Da Vinci Code. I have never read it nor intend to. I have no comment on that work of fiction and it does not represent anything of which I subsribe.
As for the slim evidence on Joseph Smiths diving rods, Smitty was deep in divining rods, magical incantations, treasure seeking, seer stones, astrology, seeing into the future, and he did all this for money. He conducted this trade well into his late 20's and continued to consult with astrological charts to determine when he should marry his 40+ wives and what months to have marital relations with them. Quite a guy, I must say. Am I unreasonable to question the validity of this guy? Am I the only one?
John, you seem like a reasonable man and there is a glimmer of hope in your Holy Envy of the Catholic Church. I can only pray that you cast the scales from your eyes and participate in theological discussion that trancends the LDS rhetoric. You certainly have a quest but your focus is misplaced. Take it off JS and put it on JC.
Thank you also for your concern of my Daughter. I am concerned as well.
Mark
Mark,
Calling Joseph Smith "Smitty" is not my idea of good-faith dialogue, by any measure. If you cannot follow Pope Benedict's recent injunction to show "reverence for that which is Holy to others", then I don't think you'll ever get very far in conversations with Latter-day Saints.
As for the rest of your comment, from your view of FARMS, to your view of the Church of Jesus Christ being a cult, to your denigration of "Smitty", we will just have to agree to disagree.
Calling Joseph Smith "Smitty" is not my idea of good-faith dialogue, by any measure. If you cannot follow Pope Benedict's recent injunction to show "reverence for that which is Holy to others", then I don't think you'll ever get very far in conversations with Latter-day Saints.
As for the rest of your comment, from your view of FARMS, to your view of the Church of Jesus Christ being a cult, to your denigration of "Smitty", we will just have to agree to disagree.
posted by: john f. on Tue, 10/24 01:32 PM EDT
Not the response I was hoping for John. I was, however, delighted that you chose to reference our beloved Pope Benedict. I have been seeking similiar statements/positions from the LDS and have been unsuccessful in finding this level of spiritualism. I am glad you are finding it in the Catholic Church.
As for my use of the nickname Smitty, I learned that reference from a Mormon friend of mine and it was not derogatory, but appeared to be a term of endearment. They also call him Joe. Is that not permitted? John, I am getting mixed signals here from the LDS fold. More LDS conflict. What shall I do?
I am glad howoever, that you bring up the issue of reverence. If JS is worthy of reverence, I would gladly comply. So far, my study of him has given me no reason to revere him, and given the brevity of your response to my observations, neither have you. "Faith asks that its object be understood with the help of reason; and at the summit of its searching reason acknowledges that it cannot do without what faith presents." (PP John Paul II)
If JS is not worthy of defense, or cannot be found reasonable, it seems to me, that he is not worthy of reverence.
John, agreeing to disagree is an easy way out. Let's get it on. Good faith dialogue gets into the meat of the matter. Who knows, maybe we'll learn something. What say you? Are you up for it?
You are invited to address the issues I raised in my previous writing. If you prefer bring to the table the most recent important theological writing of the current heirarchy of the LDS church and let's discuss it. Your choice.
John, I am eager to hear what you have to say. I hope that if I am wrong, you will be able to allow me to see the err of my ways.
As for my use of the nickname Smitty, I learned that reference from a Mormon friend of mine and it was not derogatory, but appeared to be a term of endearment. They also call him Joe. Is that not permitted? John, I am getting mixed signals here from the LDS fold. More LDS conflict. What shall I do?
I am glad howoever, that you bring up the issue of reverence. If JS is worthy of reverence, I would gladly comply. So far, my study of him has given me no reason to revere him, and given the brevity of your response to my observations, neither have you. "Faith asks that its object be understood with the help of reason; and at the summit of its searching reason acknowledges that it cannot do without what faith presents." (PP John Paul II)
If JS is not worthy of defense, or cannot be found reasonable, it seems to me, that he is not worthy of reverence.
John, agreeing to disagree is an easy way out. Let's get it on. Good faith dialogue gets into the meat of the matter. Who knows, maybe we'll learn something. What say you? Are you up for it?
You are invited to address the issues I raised in my previous writing. If you prefer bring to the table the most recent important theological writing of the current heirarchy of the LDS church and let's discuss it. Your choice.
John, I am eager to hear what you have to say. I hope that if I am wrong, you will be able to allow me to see the err of my ways.
Congratulations. I applaud your ability to find yourself in faith, whatever faith that may be.
To everyone else; why bother making argument? Is this not her choice? Shame on you all for criticizing such a deep, personal decision obviously made with much thought and personal, read that: PERSONAL revelation.
To everyone else; why bother making argument? Is this not her choice? Shame on you all for criticizing such a deep, personal decision obviously made with much thought and personal, read that: PERSONAL revelation.
posted by: Mr. Blue on Sun, 1/7 03:42 PM EST
I am Catholic and my husband is Mormon. We just got married 2 yrs ago and are now having our first child. I am 31 and he is 32 years of age.
With regards to religion, everything has been great between my husband and I. Everything was great with my mother-in-law too until now that I am pregnant. The issue with me converting has gotten greater and I truly feel that this can potentially strain our relationship.
She is a devout Mormon, is a BYU alumni, and my father-in-law was the Mormon church's bookkeeper for 35 yrs (now deceased). She is very active in the Mormon church.
I love my mother-in-law and don't want to hurt her feelings but don't know how to put it lightly that I am simply not interested. I've told her before and she wants to know the reasons why I don't feel the Mormon church is for me. I told her it's best that I leave those reasons to myself because no matter what I say, I know she will have some sort of answer of which I know won't change my mind. I told her that I've done my research on the Mormon church, read the Book of Mormon she gave me, and asked the Missionary questions and the answers I've received have not been what I feel is right or true for me.
My husband had stopped going to the Mormon church since before he met me. When I asked him why he wasn't going he simply stated that there were certain things he didn't agree with which is why he stopped. Though he's never turned to any other church and still says he's Mormon, I would never take advantage of it and try to convert him to a Catholic. It's his choice.
I asked my husband what he felt with regards to our child and religion and he told me that he would leave that up to me. If I choose to raise our child as a Catholic then it's fine with him. I just hope my mother-in-law can accept it since it is her first grandchild. It sure would be nice to get along peacefully without having religion separating us.
I respect all religions and feel that no one should impose their beliefs on anyone and should respect each other's decisions. I'm sure she wouldn't like it if I was constantly trying to convert her into being a Catholic.
Please let me know if you've had a similar experience and how you resolved it. I am also open to suggestions.
With regards to religion, everything has been great between my husband and I. Everything was great with my mother-in-law too until now that I am pregnant. The issue with me converting has gotten greater and I truly feel that this can potentially strain our relationship.
She is a devout Mormon, is a BYU alumni, and my father-in-law was the Mormon church's bookkeeper for 35 yrs (now deceased). She is very active in the Mormon church.
I love my mother-in-law and don't want to hurt her feelings but don't know how to put it lightly that I am simply not interested. I've told her before and she wants to know the reasons why I don't feel the Mormon church is for me. I told her it's best that I leave those reasons to myself because no matter what I say, I know she will have some sort of answer of which I know won't change my mind. I told her that I've done my research on the Mormon church, read the Book of Mormon she gave me, and asked the Missionary questions and the answers I've received have not been what I feel is right or true for me.
My husband had stopped going to the Mormon church since before he met me. When I asked him why he wasn't going he simply stated that there were certain things he didn't agree with which is why he stopped. Though he's never turned to any other church and still says he's Mormon, I would never take advantage of it and try to convert him to a Catholic. It's his choice.
I asked my husband what he felt with regards to our child and religion and he told me that he would leave that up to me. If I choose to raise our child as a Catholic then it's fine with him. I just hope my mother-in-law can accept it since it is her first grandchild. It sure would be nice to get along peacefully without having religion separating us.
I respect all religions and feel that no one should impose their beliefs on anyone and should respect each other's decisions. I'm sure she wouldn't like it if I was constantly trying to convert her into being a Catholic.
Please let me know if you've had a similar experience and how you resolved it. I am also open to suggestions.
Hi Laura (and everyone else on the blog)... I know it's been a while since I checked in here at the old CMP blog, but what can I say. Laura - our hearts go out to you for the situation you've described. Out of curiosity, was your marrage recognized by either church? In a short blog post, there are not too many things that I could suggest short of remaining strong in your belief of the Catholic Church. Not to turn the tables, but if a reasonable situation ever presented itself, don't feel that you cannot share your reasons for not wanting to become LDS or taking a more positive spin, perhaps share your reasons for such a strong belief in the Catholic Church. I'd certainly invite others to share their thoughts and if you don't mind, we may call out your posting on an upcoming show as a lot of folks don't visit the blog. thanks, --rob
Hi Laura,
I want to respond to your entry as it appears that you are, at least, concerned for the presence of faith in your marriage and family.
The pressure of your LDS in-laws aside, you have approached the dilemma the right way. You looked at the LDS faith, in this case, with the eyes of a Catholic, and you did not find it reasonable. It sounds like your spouse has not found truth in the LDS faith as well.
With the introduction of children in a marriage, it becomes increasingly difficult for those with different faiths to come to an agreement on the faith the child should be brought up. Knowing that you both are cold to the LDS faith, and that you admittedly are agreeable to the Catholic faith, why not start there?
The wrong approach would be to raise a family with no faith or one that is foreigh to BOTH of you. Your approach should be... Start somewhere!! You and your husband need to seek faith instruction. I would recommend that you find a parish and join. Get involved in the school, meet other Catholic parents, join a bible study group, RCIA, and start talking together about your faith journey, join a moms rosary group, A dads faith sharing group or Catholic mens club. You will find parish communities rich in activites that support the family. Learn as much as you can. The Catholic faith welcomes inquiry, promotes education, addresses dissent as part of the journey. Sacramental participation, Baptism for your family, participation in Eucharist, etc... will launch your faith in short order.
You may also find community in other denominations, but you won't find the wealth of knowledge and history contained in the Catholic Faith, in other churchs (save the Jewish faith). Your only mistake would be not to start now.... Poverty of faith, especially for a family, is hard to deal with.
Your dilemma with your mother in law is hard. It is not easy for true blue LDS to stomach having grandchildren who are not LDS. Your LDS mother-in-law should be delighted that you are involved in a church that is Christian and that as long as she agrees you both are Christian, your stance should be easier.
You will soon learn to address the errors in theology that the LDS present to those unaware or not capable of how to respond to them. Learning to defend your faith is a journey in itself.
I pray for you and your family.
I want to respond to your entry as it appears that you are, at least, concerned for the presence of faith in your marriage and family.
The pressure of your LDS in-laws aside, you have approached the dilemma the right way. You looked at the LDS faith, in this case, with the eyes of a Catholic, and you did not find it reasonable. It sounds like your spouse has not found truth in the LDS faith as well.
With the introduction of children in a marriage, it becomes increasingly difficult for those with different faiths to come to an agreement on the faith the child should be brought up. Knowing that you both are cold to the LDS faith, and that you admittedly are agreeable to the Catholic faith, why not start there?
The wrong approach would be to raise a family with no faith or one that is foreigh to BOTH of you. Your approach should be... Start somewhere!! You and your husband need to seek faith instruction. I would recommend that you find a parish and join. Get involved in the school, meet other Catholic parents, join a bible study group, RCIA, and start talking together about your faith journey, join a moms rosary group, A dads faith sharing group or Catholic mens club. You will find parish communities rich in activites that support the family. Learn as much as you can. The Catholic faith welcomes inquiry, promotes education, addresses dissent as part of the journey. Sacramental participation, Baptism for your family, participation in Eucharist, etc... will launch your faith in short order.
You may also find community in other denominations, but you won't find the wealth of knowledge and history contained in the Catholic Faith, in other churchs (save the Jewish faith). Your only mistake would be not to start now.... Poverty of faith, especially for a family, is hard to deal with.
Your dilemma with your mother in law is hard. It is not easy for true blue LDS to stomach having grandchildren who are not LDS. Your LDS mother-in-law should be delighted that you are involved in a church that is Christian and that as long as she agrees you both are Christian, your stance should be easier.
You will soon learn to address the errors in theology that the LDS present to those unaware or not capable of how to respond to them. Learning to defend your faith is a journey in itself.
I pray for you and your family.
Mark, I am glad that you can find reverence for your Pope. I myself have respect, but no reverence for Joseph Alois Ratzinger. How much reverence can I have for someone who was once part of the Nazi youth movement? OK, maybe that is a bit harsh considering the environment that he grew up in, but still that he was part of that movement hardly calls for feelings of reverence on his behalf. Yes he deserted, and was held as a U.S. prisoner of war, but what in these experiences has made him worthy of being a Pope? Now I have good reason to consider some of the other things that Joseph wants. In 1988 he wrote “The church must make claims and demands on public law, and cannot simply retreat into the private sphere." What is your interpretation of this? To me it seems that He things the catholic church should be able to write public laws? Now I have to admit this particular issue is thorny. I feel that secularism is a terrible way to have a judicial system. For instance many of the laws that we see in the U.S. being ruled unconstitutional were emplaced by those that had high religious values and used those values to enact laws. On the other hand when religions impose laws they lead to things like the inquisitions or something like the Taliban and other Muslim extremists impose on the people in their towns. That is certainly not something I want imposed on me. How much reverence should I have for someone who would impose their laws on me regardless of what I believe? In one breath he says all religions should respect each other, yet feels that the church should be able to make claims and demands on public laws? I think that the history of the Catholic church demonstrates what claims and demands on public laws could end up like. Good thing so many people fleeing persecution of the Catholic Church came to the U.S.
Maybe I am not being entirely fair to the Catholic Church. I freely admit that the catholic views on saints and prayers to the Virgin Mary boggle my mind. What in the world does the Virgin Mary have to do with intercession for us? If you want forgiveness why ask her? She didn’t do anything that can free us from our sins. Now I agree that great respect must be given to Mary. Surely her role was a pivotal one, as was Joseph’s. However, to make more of Her or Him than this makes no sense to me. Perhaps you can explain that concept a little better to me.
It is easy to say that Joseph Smith was a charlatan. Surely there are plenty of people that can “quote? you on what kind of a man He was. There are even plenty of people that will give you all the evidence that you need, true or not. On the other hand there is just as much damning evidence as to the kind of church that the Catholic Church is. Millions of people were tortured and killed because of the inquisitions that were fully supported by the leadership of the Catholic Church. To belong to an organization that condoned such behavior seems unimaginable to me. Are there such examples in the Mormon history? Well if you want to, go ahead and talk on about the mountain meadow massacre, but there it was nots condoned by anyone in a leadership positioning the church. In fact the Mormon Church ex-communicated those that participated and several of them were hung. Interestingly enough the Pope apologized for the inquisitions, but even as he apologized, scholars within the church said that there shouldn’t be an apology for something that didn’t happen except in the minds of the Protestants. (see the Symposium Report released on the subject).
So you lay down the gauntlet about any topic. I say you defend that catholic position on the inquisition and how it was justified and I will talk about how the Mormon Church is not a cult. You go first!
Just as an ending side note calling Joseph Smith “Smitty? picked up from your Mormon acquaintance is just bad on his part. It is the first time I have ever heard an active LDS member call Joseph Smith such a derogatory term. People would call him “old Joe? out of spite and hatred. I can easy understand your confusion on the issue.
Maybe I am not being entirely fair to the Catholic Church. I freely admit that the catholic views on saints and prayers to the Virgin Mary boggle my mind. What in the world does the Virgin Mary have to do with intercession for us? If you want forgiveness why ask her? She didn’t do anything that can free us from our sins. Now I agree that great respect must be given to Mary. Surely her role was a pivotal one, as was Joseph’s. However, to make more of Her or Him than this makes no sense to me. Perhaps you can explain that concept a little better to me.
It is easy to say that Joseph Smith was a charlatan. Surely there are plenty of people that can “quote? you on what kind of a man He was. There are even plenty of people that will give you all the evidence that you need, true or not. On the other hand there is just as much damning evidence as to the kind of church that the Catholic Church is. Millions of people were tortured and killed because of the inquisitions that were fully supported by the leadership of the Catholic Church. To belong to an organization that condoned such behavior seems unimaginable to me. Are there such examples in the Mormon history? Well if you want to, go ahead and talk on about the mountain meadow massacre, but there it was nots condoned by anyone in a leadership positioning the church. In fact the Mormon Church ex-communicated those that participated and several of them were hung. Interestingly enough the Pope apologized for the inquisitions, but even as he apologized, scholars within the church said that there shouldn’t be an apology for something that didn’t happen except in the minds of the Protestants. (see the Symposium Report released on the subject).
So you lay down the gauntlet about any topic. I say you defend that catholic position on the inquisition and how it was justified and I will talk about how the Mormon Church is not a cult. You go first!
Just as an ending side note calling Joseph Smith “Smitty? picked up from your Mormon acquaintance is just bad on his part. It is the first time I have ever heard an active LDS member call Joseph Smith such a derogatory term. People would call him “old Joe? out of spite and hatred. I can easy understand your confusion on the issue.
The Trinity is no mystery but when the soon to be Prophet Joseph Smitty saw the Father and the Son standing next to each other...it made the nature of their physical beings a little more clear...the BOM stands as another testament of the Savior...describes a people both living the gospel and living with the consequences of not living the gospel...my experiences in the Temple have strengthened my testimony of the Savior...I have only one wife...understand Jacob 2 to explain that we should only have one wife...unless commanded otherwise(I would prefer just one thanks)...don't understand what the Catholic church has that the Lds doesn't...bad reputaions included...but the Mormon faith has the BOM ...authority to excercise the Priesthood of God as restored by the last to hold it...(Peter James and John) and an understanding of eternal marriage...It's not in me to belittle the Catholic faith ...even if I really do look at them as a group that is missing the rest of the puzzle...(totally not a slam) but I don't understand the unmistakeable slander coming from the Catholics in this blog...warm fuzzies should come with prayer and scripture study...the Holy Ghost teaches with the authority of God...I hope this causes warm fuzzies...I can say that if haters saw proof of anything divine...surely it still wouldn't be enough...and finally, one my favorite verses in the Bom is the allegory referenced in this blog...The Lord looks after his vineyard exactly this way...what a beautiful way of explaining the Lord's work here...I can't believe it brought out the negativity it did among His children...God Bless and happy Holidays
Praise the Lord and let us bot forget our destiny in life: let's do good and may that our sins be forgiven.
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I am new to this forum, but felt that some comments about the LDS Church not having a clear statement about our doctrine exhibited a lack of understanding that I found surprising, especially since Joseph Smith wrote what we now call the 13 Articles of Faith. Nearly every child in the LDS church memorizes these articles. They are posted below and can be found on the LDS web site, and in the Pearl of Great Price. I am not sure how much more specific one can get, but there are plenty of writings addressing the core LDS beliefs if one wants to know more.
I have many great Catholic friends, and in fact in the past year I have attended a Catholic wedding and funeral at which time full Catholic Masses were performed. Our former Bishop was a Catholic and he often discusses the differences in doctrine between the Catholic and LDS faiths.
The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
by Joseph Smith
I have many great Catholic friends, and in fact in the past year I have attended a Catholic wedding and funeral at which time full Catholic Masses were performed. Our former Bishop was a Catholic and he often discusses the differences in doctrine between the Catholic and LDS faiths.
The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
by Joseph Smith
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Chris,
I apologize for not responding sooner but it has been a long time since I have visited this site as I believe it has been abandoned by its creators, too bad.
Excellent line of inquiry and I hope to be able to address some of your questions in the spirit of reason and search for knowledge of God.
By reading your comments about Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict the XVI, it seems that you have not done much research into his life. He did, in fact serve in the Nazi youth movement; however his life was tremendously impacted negatively by its intrinsic evil and has turned his life around to be a lifelong soldier and defender of Christ and his Church. To understand the full nature of Pope Benedict, I would direct you to read his encyclicals on Hope, and Love, recently published since his pontificate was begun (see both publications at http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/index_en.htm
A search of his writings reveals over 25 publications that range from basic theological study to well researched and scholastic Catholic teachings. This amount of study and knowledge does well to support the election of Joseph Ratzinger by the Cardinals of the Church to the position of Pope. I hope that his inquiry will allow you to see that the Seat of Peter is currently occupied by a brilliant theologian and servant of Christ. I urge you to study his words and make your comments accordingly.
The Catholic Church has always demanded through its social teachings that Christians must practice the fundamental teachings of Christ, wherever they are, including its political activities. It is no secret that the Catholic Church demands that Christians promote, in all areas of their social contacts, fundamental respect and advancement of the culture of Life (which includes in one area, pro-life, anti-abortion efforts.) You will find that the Catholic Church teachings about life issues reach well beyond just abortion issues.
The Catholic Church finds these teachings to be universal and not in conflict with the basic and fundamental needs of all people around the world. While many argue (including you) that these issues constitute an intrusion of the Catholic Church into society, they cannot reasonably argue that the issues that the Church is promoting are not essential in our society. One must really know of the Catholic Church and the good work that it does around the world to realize the impact of its efforts around the world. Just take a look at the works of Catholic Charities around to world to get a better view of the social impact and good works that Catholics make that are well entrenched and welcomed in the secular world.
It is entirely correct to lump the cruel actions of the Taliban, the Inquisition and the Mountain Meadow Massacre into one explanation, it is the presence of evil on earth. Simple as that. It is a sad truth that evil exists on earth and that humans are always victims to its influence. The fall of a man cannot be placed on anyone else than the man who committed the offense. The truth contained in the Catholic Church was established by Christ and cannot be changed by sinful man. The sin of man is just that, his sin, not the Church’s sin. Recent Popes have issued apologies, appropriately so, in an effort to heal the wounds of the actions of those within the Church who have not held fast to the truth of Christ. Reconciliation is a Sacrament of the Church and it is practiced by each of its members as a method to heal the hurt that sin causes and brings us back into the good grace of God. It is an example of solidarity that has, as far as I know, not practiced by other faiths. I have not found it in the LDS teachings. Am I wrong?
The role of Mary and the Saints is well established. One must understand the concept of the ‘Communion of Saints’, essentially, the Communion of Saints is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head, and in a constant interchange of supernatural offices. By calling on the intercession of those holy men and women who have come before us, binds us together as one body and pleads our corporal needs together at the feet of God.
Mary holds a particular role as she is the Mother of God. Called by God himself, to bear the Son of God on Earth. Mary’s response to Gods’ request (“I am the handmade of the Lord”) is viewed as the ultimate response to the call of God and is an example to us as humans to be constantly open to the word of God and his constant call to follow and trust Him. Mary is deemed ‘without sin’ and holds a special position at the throne of God and a participant of God’s work on earth.
It is misunderstood by LDS and other non-Catholic denominations that we ‘worship’ idols. This could not be more wrong. We acknowledge the good and faithful works of those who have come before us and those amongst us who are living testaments of the work of God in their lives and moreover, bring God to others through their good works. It is explained as similar to looking at the pictures of our loved ones contained is someone’s wallet. We recognize these people as inspired by God and hope that through the Communion of Saints, we may achieve the knowledge and spirit of God too. They are our spiritual brothers and sisters, not Gods.
One cannot research Joseph Smith without finding the truth about his activities. He did not live too long ago to erase evidence of his activities. LDS does much to downplay the evidence as throwing stones yet the evidence is what it is. No one in the Catholic Church refutes the inquisition. We do not deny it and we have gone so far as to condemn it as evil. For the LDS to condemn Joseph Smith would entirely remove the basis for its existence. Instead the LDS chooses to deflect the truth in an effort to maintain its authority.
I would direct you to the Catholic Encyclical on Faith and Reason. It essentially explains that if a tenet of the faith is not reasonable, it should not be part of the faith. Reasoning is a God given gift that is necessary to understand Faith. To deny reason is to deny a gift of God. Blind faith to any god does not allow the freedom of man to find the truth of his faith. Cults use this blind faith to withhold freedoms to control their followers. These explanations are frequently communicated by those once faithful LDS who come to disbelieve their faith journey because it becomes unreasonable and they seek freedom to pursue the truth. If there is any other more compelling argument for the LDS as a cult, just look to the secret underwear, secret handshakes and secret temple ceremonies.
Incidentally, when you refer to the “Millions of people” tortured and killed because of the inquisitors, a simple research will reveal that while there were some 125,000 trials of suspected heretics in Spain, researchers found that about 1 percent of the defendants were executed.
In Portugal, 5.7 percent of the more than 13,000 people tried before church tribunals in the 16th and early 17th century were condemned to death. While not approving of the activities, it is certainly within great error to perpetuate wrongful, distorted and exaggerated information.
When you speak of condoning behavior that is unimaginable, I have plenty of examples in Mormon History. (You asked for it!!) I can begin with the racist exclusion of blacks; the multiple wives and deceit that the men played on one another to sleep with each others wives (Joseph Smith had 40 wives!); the fraudulent presentation/interpretation of an Egyptian death manuscript as writings from God. Joseph Smith himself was killed as he branded and used a handgun to avoid arrest for destroying a newspaper business that was going to expose the “secrets” of the LDS and the sexual deviances of the followers.
Shall I continue?
Chris, it is clear that you are well entrenched in the LDS teachings. I can’t fault you for this, however you are a smart person. I applaud you for engaging in this conversation and encourage you to look beyond the false rhetoric that you present in this exchange about the Catholic Church. We are talking TRUTHS here. I have presented several examples of theological works of Pope Benedict here. (There are many more where this came from) Can you include similar public documents presented by the LDS president? I can’t find any and no one from the LDS fold have been able to direct me to them. Can you?
Thanx Chris, Looking forward to your replies.
Mark
I apologize for not responding sooner but it has been a long time since I have visited this site as I believe it has been abandoned by its creators, too bad.
Excellent line of inquiry and I hope to be able to address some of your questions in the spirit of reason and search for knowledge of God.
By reading your comments about Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict the XVI, it seems that you have not done much research into his life. He did, in fact serve in the Nazi youth movement; however his life was tremendously impacted negatively by its intrinsic evil and has turned his life around to be a lifelong soldier and defender of Christ and his Church. To understand the full nature of Pope Benedict, I would direct you to read his encyclicals on Hope, and Love, recently published since his pontificate was begun (see both publications at http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/index_en.htm
A search of his writings reveals over 25 publications that range from basic theological study to well researched and scholastic Catholic teachings. This amount of study and knowledge does well to support the election of Joseph Ratzinger by the Cardinals of the Church to the position of Pope. I hope that his inquiry will allow you to see that the Seat of Peter is currently occupied by a brilliant theologian and servant of Christ. I urge you to study his words and make your comments accordingly.
The Catholic Church has always demanded through its social teachings that Christians must practice the fundamental teachings of Christ, wherever they are, including its political activities. It is no secret that the Catholic Church demands that Christians promote, in all areas of their social contacts, fundamental respect and advancement of the culture of Life (which includes in one area, pro-life, anti-abortion efforts.) You will find that the Catholic Church teachings about life issues reach well beyond just abortion issues.
The Catholic Church finds these teachings to be universal and not in conflict with the basic and fundamental needs of all people around the world. While many argue (including you) that these issues constitute an intrusion of the Catholic Church into society, they cannot reasonably argue that the issues that the Church is promoting are not essential in our society. One must really know of the Catholic Church and the good work that it does around the world to realize the impact of its efforts around the world. Just take a look at the works of Catholic Charities around to world to get a better view of the social impact and good works that Catholics make that are well entrenched and welcomed in the secular world.
It is entirely correct to lump the cruel actions of the Taliban, the Inquisition and the Mountain Meadow Massacre into one explanation, it is the presence of evil on earth. Simple as that. It is a sad truth that evil exists on earth and that humans are always victims to its influence. The fall of a man cannot be placed on anyone else than the man who committed the offense. The truth contained in the Catholic Church was established by Christ and cannot be changed by sinful man. The sin of man is just that, his sin, not the Church’s sin. Recent Popes have issued apologies, appropriately so, in an effort to heal the wounds of the actions of those within the Church who have not held fast to the truth of Christ. Reconciliation is a Sacrament of the Church and it is practiced by each of its members as a method to heal the hurt that sin causes and brings us back into the good grace of God. It is an example of solidarity that has, as far as I know, not practiced by other faiths. I have not found it in the LDS teachings. Am I wrong?
The role of Mary and the Saints is well established. One must understand the concept of the ‘Communion of Saints’, essentially, the Communion of Saints is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head, and in a constant interchange of supernatural offices. By calling on the intercession of those holy men and women who have come before us, binds us together as one body and pleads our corporal needs together at the feet of God.
Mary holds a particular role as she is the Mother of God. Called by God himself, to bear the Son of God on Earth. Mary’s response to Gods’ request (“I am the handmade of the Lord”) is viewed as the ultimate response to the call of God and is an example to us as humans to be constantly open to the word of God and his constant call to follow and trust Him. Mary is deemed ‘without sin’ and holds a special position at the throne of God and a participant of God’s work on earth.
It is misunderstood by LDS and other non-Catholic denominations that we ‘worship’ idols. This could not be more wrong. We acknowledge the good and faithful works of those who have come before us and those amongst us who are living testaments of the work of God in their lives and moreover, bring God to others through their good works. It is explained as similar to looking at the pictures of our loved ones contained is someone’s wallet. We recognize these people as inspired by God and hope that through the Communion of Saints, we may achieve the knowledge and spirit of God too. They are our spiritual brothers and sisters, not Gods.
One cannot research Joseph Smith without finding the truth about his activities. He did not live too long ago to erase evidence of his activities. LDS does much to downplay the evidence as throwing stones yet the evidence is what it is. No one in the Catholic Church refutes the inquisition. We do not deny it and we have gone so far as to condemn it as evil. For the LDS to condemn Joseph Smith would entirely remove the basis for its existence. Instead the LDS chooses to deflect the truth in an effort to maintain its authority.
I would direct you to the Catholic Encyclical on Faith and Reason. It essentially explains that if a tenet of the faith is not reasonable, it should not be part of the faith. Reasoning is a God given gift that is necessary to understand Faith. To deny reason is to deny a gift of God. Blind faith to any god does not allow the freedom of man to find the truth of his faith. Cults use this blind faith to withhold freedoms to control their followers. These explanations are frequently communicated by those once faithful LDS who come to disbelieve their faith journey because it becomes unreasonable and they seek freedom to pursue the truth. If there is any other more compelling argument for the LDS as a cult, just look to the secret underwear, secret handshakes and secret temple ceremonies.
Incidentally, when you refer to the “Millions of people” tortured and killed because of the inquisitors, a simple research will reveal that while there were some 125,000 trials of suspected heretics in Spain, researchers found that about 1 percent of the defendants were executed.
In Portugal, 5.7 percent of the more than 13,000 people tried before church tribunals in the 16th and early 17th century were condemned to death. While not approving of the activities, it is certainly within great error to perpetuate wrongful, distorted and exaggerated information.
When you speak of condoning behavior that is unimaginable, I have plenty of examples in Mormon History. (You asked for it!!) I can begin with the racist exclusion of blacks; the multiple wives and deceit that the men played on one another to sleep with each others wives (Joseph Smith had 40 wives!); the fraudulent presentation/interpretation of an Egyptian death manuscript as writings from God. Joseph Smith himself was killed as he branded and used a handgun to avoid arrest for destroying a newspaper business that was going to expose the “secrets” of the LDS and the sexual deviances of the followers.
Shall I continue?
Chris, it is clear that you are well entrenched in the LDS teachings. I can’t fault you for this, however you are a smart person. I applaud you for engaging in this conversation and encourage you to look beyond the false rhetoric that you present in this exchange about the Catholic Church. We are talking TRUTHS here. I have presented several examples of theological works of Pope Benedict here. (There are many more where this came from) Can you include similar public documents presented by the LDS president? I can’t find any and no one from the LDS fold have been able to direct me to them. Can you?
Thanx Chris, Looking forward to your replies.
Mark
The reason potential converts are asked to pray to determine if the BOM is true is that If it were true, it would be self evident and wouldn't need any special feelings to validate, so the SCC is reduced to telling the credulous that warm fuzzies validate the BOM.
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